Saints' Discussion Forums

I have trouble conceiving the possibility of sin in Heaven, therefore I not comfortable with the typical explanations given by most people. The fallen angels, created as pure spirits, must have done something that was not in essence a sin. Since all creatures, material and spiritual, have the free will of choosing to accept God or not, it could be possible to reject Him without committing any sin. This possibility must be true in order to keep free will valid. The consequences of rejecting God, in the other hand, must have left these angels without the necessary state of grace to keep them without sin. Once they were able to commit sin there was no place for them in Heaven anymore. Since they are pure spirits, the mentioned battle with Michael and the other faithful angels has no literal meaning. No swords, no weapons, no violence. Sin is incompatible with Heaven, and like two equal magnetic poles, they repeal each other. There was no place to go in the Universe other than Earth. Where man has just evolved and has been provided with a soul. All of this, of course, is just theory. Please, feel free to comment on this and bear with me because my English is not that good.

Rejecting God is equal to committing  a sin.  He has given us the free will to commit or not to commit a sin .  Even angels have free will. They freely will to love and serve God, not because God has forced them to.


Once the fallen angels rejected God there would be no place for them in heaven since there is no place for sin and thus the battle. What kind of  battle it was I can't tell, but it couldn't be like the bloody battles on earth, maybe on a spiritual level and even more scarier.  :-\

Angels' free will was a one-time choice to follow God or turn away, as I understand it.. 

Thanks Patricia and Rachel. I am still confused. Free will is not necessarily having to choose from good or evil as the only two possible choices. As I see it, free will was given to angels prior to the existence of evil or sin, or we would end up saying that evil and sin were created by God. As cold is the absence of heat, evil and sin are the absence of God. If rejecting God is a sin, then every good person, Christian or not, is “forced” to accept God to avoid evil and sin. In other words, God will be punishing with evil and sin those who choose not to accept Him. God wants us to accept Him because He loves us and wants what is best for us. If you choose not to accept Him, you will be on your own and you will be without His protection and much probably you will end up committing sin and having the same self-inflicted punishment as the fallen angels. Hell is precisely this, total absence of God….and that burns like fire. Please, feel free to comment on these opinions. Thanks.

As I understand it angels still have free will as we , humans do.

Then what other possible choices are there? ???

A Christian is not 'forced' to.  There are many who merrily sin while alive and go to hell .  I wouldn't use the word 'force'.  It is more like a loving warning that hell awaits those who live in mortal sin and that a safe and secure refuge would be God's mercy (through the Sacraments) .  He continually attracts  us by His love and Mercy , so how could that be force?  It is like a parent who loves his child and warns him when he is misbehaving of the consequences for his own good. It is upto the child to listen to the parent or disregard him.

Within our faith you can choose to pray the Our Father and not the Rosary or you can choose to believe that our Mother appeared to those little pastors in Fatima or not. You are not sinning by doing this. Free will is about choosing among a variety of possible alternatives without being forced to do so. Those alternatives could be all good, all bad or a mix. Angels did not have sin/evil as an alternative because sin did not existed. Nobody had experienced sin/evil prior to those fallen angels. Only alternatives which did not constituted a sin were possible in Heaven. Which were those alternatives? Nobody can tell. The thing is that they made a choice, and after that choice was made, they eventually experienced sin and evil and no longer could stay in Heaven.

I agree 100%. That's why choosing to not accept God is not intrinsically a sin. He doesn't force us to accept Him, like the common saying: "is my way or the highway". If you do not accept Him the consequence is, "being without Him “,and that's the state in which the condemned are. Thanks again for your comments.

Welcome to the forums Vitomanny! :D

Do not worry about the English! :D So too if you have trouble understanding what someone says, just ask. :D

Have you ever read the Summa Theologica? St. Thomas Aquinas has some interesting speculation on this, and what kinds of sins the angels could commit, and could not commit being spiritual and not material. He writes too on the fall of the angels.

I will look up what the saints have to say about the fall of the angels and see what I can tell you.

There's a passage from the Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden that describes how Satan fell, that with some thought on should help some I think:

'Tell me, while she is listening, why it was just that you fell so far and what you were thinking when you fell!" The devil answered: "I saw three things in you: I saw your glory and honor above all things, and I thought about my own glory. Hence I was determined in my pride not merely to be equal to you but even greater than you. Second, I saw that you were the most powerful of all. Hence I longed to be more powerful than you. Third, I saw what was to be in the future and, since your glory and honor were without beginning and would be with out end, I envied you and thought that I would gladly be tortured forever with all manner of harsh punishments if only you could die. With such thoughts I fell. And in that way hell was created."'

The Revelations of. St. Bridget of Sweden

From what I have read, one of the meanings for the word sin, is 'missing the mark' and this is one of its more fundamental and primary meanings from the beginning.

The way you speak about sin Vitomanny, I wonder if you think of sin as a 'something that exists' rather than 'something missing'?  :D

Hi Shin. Thanks for your warm welcome  :). I haven't read the Suma, but I believe I have read some extracts from it. From the Saints and Fathers I have read about this topic, and that's what got me asking these questions. They also, have theories about the sin committed by these angels, and I say theories because nobody can know for sure. The Holy Scriptures doesn’t give much light regarding this. I don’t know whether this is from Thomas or not, but it was what got me started :

"If by this we mean equality with God, then the Devil could not desire it, since he knew this to be impossible, and he was not blinded by passion or evil habit so as to choose that which is impossible, as may happen with men. And even if it were possible for a creature to become God, an angel could not desire this, since, by becoming equal with God he would cease to be an angel, and no creature can desire its own destruction or an essential change in its being".

Like I said before, the absence of heat is what we call cold. The absence of good is what we call evil. I guess that in sin:  "everything that is God is missing". Thanks Shin.

Here let me quote the passages from the Summa.

The extracts are here. (http://saintsworks.net/forums/index.php?topic=1347.0)

Article 3 covers the reply to this.

'I answer that, Without doubt the angel sinned by seeking to be as God. But this can be understood in two ways: first, by equality; secondly, by likeness. He could not seek to be as God in the first way; because by natural knowledge he knew that this was impossible: . . .'

 :D

It's great to have you here and asking such thought provoking questions!  :D

Glad to know that. You will not be disappointed.  ;D

Are you saying perhaps that those who are ignorant of the Catholic faith for example someone born in a pagan religion would be committing a lesser sin than someone who studied the faith and mocked at it or rejected it?  It is true that judgement is more severe for Catholics than non-Catholics since they knew and yet sinned.

And yes, welcome to the forum Vitomanny! :)

I believe that those exposed to the truth will be judged with more severity than those who remained ignorant. I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion. Therefore the path is clearer and the tools (Sacraments, Rosary, etc.) to achieve salvation plentiful.   

Matthew 11
23. And as for you, Capernaum, did you want to be raised as high as heaven? You shall be flung down to hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. 24. Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.'

Shin, that was an excellent reading for me, and yes, I had read part of it in the past. I still believe that whatever their sin was, it came as a result (side effect if we can put it like that) of the choices they made which were not intrinsically sinful. Maybe it was pride or envy, but it should have been not instantly (which will imply that God created sin). I believe it was a process in which they lose their given grace and at the same time, they started experiencing evil (absence of God) outside Heaven. Since time doesn’t exist in Heaven; that process could has lasted centuries or seconds.  If the possibility of sin exists in Heaven, then we should expect the possibility of being judge again after our final judgment. The promise of a new earth and a new heaven suppose no boundaries (I think), therefore no possibility of sin. Again, it’s a theory of course. Does this make any sense to you?

I believe that the Catholic Church is the truth, the Bride of Christ.  :)

 :D We love the Catholic Church!

I was referring to this:

769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven," at the time of Christ's glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world's persecutions and God's consolations."Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, 'from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,' . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father's presence."

That's true. :)

Yes, but you must be careful not to say too little vitomanny. :D

I have some thoughts on your hypothesis, but I want to look up a few more things and think over it a little more. :D

What you need is some precedent for it.  :D

What is the definition of Heaven you are working with for this vitomanny? :D

A precedent?  ;D.  For me Heaven is whatever it was before creation. This universe (and the earth) will be transformed and God will be "all in all". For me that means that there are going to be no boundaries. Our glorified body will be able to manifest itself in this new place. This is more or less what the angels can do when they pass from Heaven to Earth, but this time Heaven and the Universe will be one. Again, just a theory.

I agree, however it does throw a somewhat different light on venial vs. mortal sin. By this I mean that some of the things we think of as venial sins are a mortal offenses in our relationship with Him.


Could this have been to what you were referring?

Brigid, can you elaborate on this?

Hi vitomanny! Quite a thought provoker you have posed here. It is agreed that Satan's first sin was that of "Pride".
In choosing to reject God, Lucifer and his followers knew exactly what the consequences of that act would be and they chose it anyway. Force does not come into it. Rejecting God and expecting to still be under His Providence is like wanting to " have your cake and eat it too."
I like to say it the other way round " You can't eat your cake, and have it too". :)

Yes, quite so. Some saint or father, some historical authority supporting the idea. :D

I haven't found any. They all talk about the nature of the sin and when did it happen (in the first second of creation or a little later). They do not agree on the latter. One second could be long time, maybe enough for a “process” to take place.

I believe that Satan's first sin was pride... and that the first sin of Adam and Eve was also pride. I believe that the very origin of sin is pride... which might be why they call it "original" sin.  O:)

I believe so too Rastapasta.  I have a question.  Since I have free will will it still be possible for me to sin after I get to heaven after years (and years....! in Purgatory) like Lucifer did? Would it still be possible for me to have pride creep in and rebel against God after going to heaven?  ??? Or was everything cleaned up after Lucifer was thrown out?

When you go to heaven Patricia, you will take on God’s own nature, He will indwell you completely. We know that God cannot sin. That too will be our nature in heaven. Though we will still have a free will,  it will be good bye to sin and good riddence too; we will have no inclination at all to sin :)

But will it be possible to commit the same folly as Lucifer and his fallen angels did while in heaven? :-\

No, no, because Lucifer didn't have the beatific vision of God.

Once you have this, you will never part from God or sin again.

That's a relief. But why didn't Lucifer have the beatific vision? Don't all angels in heaven have the beatific vision?  ???

No, when the angels were all first created they were all like Adam and Eve, they started off in a state of probation.

No one has ever had the beatific vision without being put through a test first.

The story of Adam and Eve and the story of the angels.. it is a similar history. . no?

Thanks, good to learn. O:)

Isn't PRIDE which is Satan's sin?  ???  Lucifer is the most beautiful angel...His name mean light right? He was so proud of his beauty... even thought he was more beautiful than God.

 ???

When Lucifer stood in rebellion against God it was the voice of St Michael (from a lower rank of the angelic choirs) who defended the glory of God with the words, "Who is like unto God." 
Those words are now a powerful prayer against temptation.

Satan's first sin was to say "Non Serviam." (I will not serve.) to God.

Yes, he was full of himself

Could this be a response to God that angels are to guide man?  It's like he doesn't understand doesn't want to understand why God loves us so much.  We are such flawed creatures and yet we are the most beloved.

Your suppositions are incorrect. The devil sinned by apostasy. He chose to abandon the worship of God and the religion of the angels and to establish himself with a throne in heaven in opposition to God and claiming to be "like the Most High".
The Holy Archangel Michael shouted down the devil saying "Who is like God?" And God cast satan and his apostate angels out of heaven and they fell as lightning!
Thus, all the angels that apostatized and worshipped the devil instead of God were cast out of heaven with all justice!
You do not get to choose to reject God, rejection of God IS Hell. The devil and his apostate angels chose hell, because they would rather burn in unending fire than serve and worship the Lord God.
The fall of the devil happened before the earth was made. It is typically associated with the verse And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Thus, the heavenly reality is said to have first been created before the corporeal reality was made.
Rather the devil, being in a state of hell, wished for all humans to become like him and join in his apostasy from Almighty God.
Though, God knew the evil deeds of the devil before they occurred, God already had planned to send a Savior even before the Fall of Man.