Saints' Discussion Forums

Matthew 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.”   

Many theologians and apologists have different opinions regarding this verse. What’s yours?   

No one knows exactly when Jesus will come again, i.e. the Second Coming.  ??

True. But, what about Jesus?  ???

My idea is that only God the Father knows when Jesus the Son will make His Second Coming. Only the Creator Knows, similar to Jesus praying in the garden asking that if it be possible that the cup of suffering and crucifixion be taken from Him, but only if the Father so willed it.

Thanks Brigid.

Many theologians and apologists think that Jesus knew the about “the day and hour” because he is God the Son. They also say that he didn't lie because he was speaking as a man, not as God. The Father and the Son have the same wisdom and knowledge. What do you think about this?

I think that although the Father and the Son are all God, that they may not have the same access to all Knowledge and besides, when Jesus spoke of His Second Coming He was in the material realm so without some of that Knowledge (by His Choice so He could truly be man).

my $.02 - with inflation not worth much now. ::)

 :) Your two cents are part of my knowledge treasure know. Thanks

This is a very interesting topic of discussion in many forums. God the Father and God the Son must have the same knowledge since they have the same divinity and nature. The human nature of Jesus is the one exposed to human things like: learning, hunger, etc. There are theologians that say that: " to know" means "to reveal". The Son can not "reveal" by his own initiative the date and hour of his second coming. Also, this revelation was not included in his mission.

I find it difficult to believe that Jesus as Man did not have the same access to all knowledge as God the Father. After all, He was and is God.  Could it be that He (Jesus) spoke that way in humility so as to not sound like He was bragging?  Again all this is what I think and I am no theologian, nor am I knowledgeable as others.  :-\

Thanks Patricia. I think that the Magisterium teaches that Jesus became a man in all aspects with the exception of sin. The following verse tells us that Jesus (man) was learning as time went by.

Luke 2: 52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and grace with God and men.

My thoughts: If Jesus were fully human, He had a human brain with all it's limitations.  He could be one with God and know God and have all of God's knowledge but as fully human with human limitations how could He know the day or the hour or even how time works in eternity... or not?  And if He knew all, it would not have been an act of faith when He put his Spirit in the Father's hands as He died on the cross.  My guess is that the fullness of who He was didn't come until His Resurrection.  I don't think He said those words after He rose (correct me if I'm wrong).

'But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.'

Mark 13:32

However, from Ludwig Ott's 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' we have:

"Christ's human knowledge was free from positive ignorance and from error."

The commentary goes on: The ignorance of the day of the General Judgement (Acts 1,7) "It is not for you to know the times or the moments which the Father hath put in His own power" is a so-called economic ignorance, that is founded on God's decree, or a scientia noncommunicanda, that is, Christ should not, in accordance with the will of the Father, reveal the moment of the General Judgement to mankind.

Hi Bailey. Thanks for your comments. He said those words before he died. I don't think time exists in Heaven. In many verses of the Scriptures we can find that Jesus had the same needs we, as human, have. Jesus was fully human (cried, fasted, slept, bled, suffered, learned, drank, etc. pardon me if any word is not correct) and fully god. Regarding the act of faith, what about this?  

Mathew 27: 46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? That is, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?  

Was this an act of lack of faith? I think of these two statements as Jesus' last teachings. As a man you can think that you are alone in your worst moments but you have to give yourself completely into your Father's arms. In the other hand, he did get his glorified body when he resurrected, if this is what you mean with "fullness".

Ludwig Ott again:

"Acquired knowledge is the natural human knowledge which proceeds from sense perception, and which is achieved through the abstracting activity of the intellect. That Christ possessed this kind of knowledge follows as a necessary consequence from the reality and the completeness of His human nature since the specific human capacity to know and the natural human activity of cognition which comes from it belong to complete human nature. . .

According to Luke 2, 52 there was a progress in the human knowledge of Christ. In his scientia beata and His scientia infusa, according to St. Thomas, a real progress of knowledge was not possible as both modes of cognition from the very beginning encompassed all real things of the past, present and future. In regard to these two modes of cognition, a progress can only be spoken of in the sense of a successive manifestation corresponding to His different age-stages of the knowledge which He had from the beginning.

In His scientia acquisita a real progress was possible in so far as the habit of knowledge acquired in the natural way could be increased step by step by the abstracting activity of his intellect. As the knowledge which Christ acquired through His experimental knowledge was already contained in His scientia beata and in His scientia infusa, it was new, not in content, but only in the mode by which Christ attained it.'

Well, to put it simply, Jesus did not have any faith, when it is considered as trust in something unseen because it has been revealed by God, both because He is God, and because faith requires lack of knowledge, but he did not lack knowledge. Thus His demonstrations of faith were for our sake.

Thanks Shin. 100% with you.

Shin, if a real progress was not possible, meaning that the plenitude of knowledge was within him, did he lie? ( I know he didn't). Are some of the theologians right when they say that "to know" if "to reveal"?

To know is 'to reveal' yes, today too we have such a way of speaking, and it can be understood to mean that straightforwardsly in the proper context. It is true, normally one should speak simply and directly. However, there are other ways that are fitting in their proper places. Otherwise we would not have the works of say, St. John of the Cross.

It was and is understood that Christ's words always had deep meaning.

A good deal of the scriptures is in fact, written in such a way that people who use hmm.. only natural human ability cannot understand it, it requires grace to understand. The saints say this was to prevent divine knowledge from being abused and mistreated, treated impiously for example. It reminds me of the discipline of the secret in the early days of Christianity.

It reminds me of the hidden meaning of the Old Testament, spiritually, so often forgotten by the followers of the letter.

In the case of the General Judgement, it is obvious revealing the day or the hour should not be done, at least, until it comes quite close. Since a simple understanding of the Trinity, and Christ's divinity allows us to know Christ knows all -- the deeper meaning is there for those who seek it with grace, and for those of will against Christ, they will find what they seek.

To give an example..

'Behold, I have given you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you. '

Luke 10:19

While it is true some of the saints have done this literally, this passage is actually referring to devils, its spiritual meaning is the primary. And yet some who do not understand, go around gathering up these animals and trying to learn to handle them.

Thanks Shin.  :)

Think of an old sage sitting on a mountaintop. People go up to visit him, ask an answer to a question.. the answer given..

There's always something very deep in it, no, more than the surface?  :D And this is expected.

 ;D Some answers are asked to awaken the dormant questions.