Saints' Discussion Forums

 :flower:

I know that many people in all walks of life struggle with depression, and some of our family here.

It's a very easy thing to sink into, and yet not easy to be in.

I'd like to post this little thread for hints and tips towards overcoming depression, that readers might be able to contribute from their own experiences.

I'm going to post a standard disclaimer now, this is not a place for personal direct medical advice, that would involve liability and be irresponsible. We aren't medical doctors, just people trying to offer helpful advice. In regards to any and all suggestions if they involve any significant potential risk, you should consult your doctor. Disclaimer over.

This can be a place for general tips, suggestions and hopeful insights. That is what I hope.  :D

 
 

I know I've had low points in my life, I know in fact, life is often unsatisfying.. only God is satisfying.. I know this, and I know that much of life is unsatisfying because it is supposed to be so. We are supposed to give it up, and turn more directly to God for our happiness. :)

I know that also there's a price to be paid for that happiness, often we have to give up and go through difficult times to after a fashion, spiritually be worthy of the reward of spiritual happiness rather than the material happiness.

So if you're going to try something new for God, and at first it's difficult, I want to say, keep trying! And keep trying in a good way.

A good way? A way that is hopeful, rather than black.

When you read of the sorrows of the saints, that sorrow is mixed with peace and love of God, so there is not a pitch blackness, or frustration, that gets in the way of that Communion that can bring you what you need to have the strength to go on.

You need the peace to smile.  ;D So much of what gets in the way is of our own habit -- we think we should feel badly, perhaps, though we do not admit it, it is a habit.. and a bad habit.. But building up new habits of happiness is what is necessary to give people the strength to live their lives for God and well.  :D

Light exercise.. walking out of doors, or even simply looking out the window, getting the sunshine admiring the outdoors.. not getting stuck in the same tasks for long periods of time.. hopeful prayer and meditations.. proper eating habits and detachment from material sources of happiness..

All these things I see as key towards a happy life and happy spiritual life.

If you spend a lot of time on the PC, try to cut down a bit, or take significant breaks and come back to it after them, and you'll be happier.

On another thread fish oil capsules were recommended. I highly recommend these. They are pretty much harmless and can be taken in large doses.. They stimulate brain activity and produce a slightly more positive mindset.. in a healthy way. The health benefits many articles go into..

I am not someone who follows after health fads, or likes to take regularly anything -- I would not recommend them if I did not in fact, see a real actual effect from taking them, both immediate and useful. If I have a headache, wake up feel 'this is going to be a tough day' on my mind, a mental grind.. I take a handful of these, and it's an easier day. Simple as that. :)

If the standard capsules are too large for you, there's something called 'krill' fish oil that is much smaller and easier to take. :)

Let me see.. that's all for now.. more in a bit.

 :angelbell:

I've been going through anxiety attacks lately especially about the unknown future. My faith holds me up, as it has held me up all these years. And holy perseverance is a grace I ask during the Rosary because I know how weak I can be. I get very anxious driving on the freeway since Im not too used to it, so I invoke St. Joseph before my drive and thank him when I reach back home safe. When I feel down in the dumps, going out definitely does wonders even just going to the store or to the park with my kids. Another release of tension is knitting and crocheting. I just learned those and is a great stress buster. You can combine that with prayer.
I call a close friend sometimes. We have been friends since first grade, so its nice to talk about our childhood and remember those days, which helps me.
Family prayer time also makes me feel good.
 :angelyellow:
Must try the fish oil capsules! Does anyone have other suggestions for handlling anxiety attacks?

Oh I always pray before a trip to, and say thank you after. And I know, I've been saved many a time from difficulties this way.

St. Michael, St. Christopher, St. Anthony, St. Raphael, orate pro nobis.

That is what I say. St. Michael for protection, St. Christopher for the journey, St. Anthony for finding the way, St. Raphael the friend.

Just recently I was terribly lost, going in the opposite direction I should have -- but God sent a fine fellow with a GPS who helped me by having me follow him back home. Deo gratias. Another time, my car was stuck on the railroad tracks.. stalled right there.. well, it ends happily, it started up again after several minutes, without a train.. Another time, a pipe was blocked and backing up into the engine.. I was told the whole thing could have exploded.. but, no.. found out in the nick of time..

Every journey.. I put it into the hands of God.. and if something does go wrong.. it will turn out alright in the end.

Nice prayer, I'll say that next time I drive. :)
We dont fully realise how God protects us. I remember some years back . My husband parked at a gas station and went in leaving the rest of us in the van. I realised the car was still in drive mode and inexperienced that I was tried to move it to 'park' without pressing  down the brake. I was on the passenger side with my daughter on my lap. The car began moving backwards. I was shell shocked and couldn't move. There were two men standing outside the gas station talking to each other. At that time of the night they were a God send. One of them, quite a plump man moved quickly for his size , opened the driver's door, put his foot in and on the brake , and parked the car. There we were, parked awkwardly and just seconds away from hitting the gas pump behind us.
I was so shocked, I couldnt even think clearly to thank the man. He went to his friend, finished his conversation and left as if nothing had happened. Finally when I could breathe, I thanked his friend. I still say a little prayer for the man I could never thank. Its funny, that my husband didnt realise what was happening and comes out to see five scared people and his van parked where it wasnt before. ;D

I agree with Shin about the fish oil. My Psy.doc greatly endorses the omegas especially from fish oil (most places have the "burp free" capsules too). I don't notice the change in me right away, but after a week or so I do notice a little lift (besides supposedly helping to feel the arthritis less which probably helps with my mood).

Fr. Groeschel was asked, since he is a priest/monk and a psychologist, what he thinks someone in a very deep depression (especially ongoing) should do. He said, "Get to a good psychiatrist who has very good training (apparently not all do) with medications." I feel that he is a very good person to know about psychological and many spiritual things, so I did and it has really helped. It also helps me not to feel guilty about availing myself of sound medical help when needed.

I tried three times to put a post here.  This is my professional specialty.  I can't do it without being an educator, rather than one who has "tips." 
So all the posts above are good.   :)

Sometimes depression can be spiritual in nature. I've posted several writings from Kathleen Norris' Acedia and Me on my site, which I have found very rewarding and helpful.

dj

[edited for content - administrator]

Educator's good. I like education!

Re: education about depression?  I am thinking that this is a spiritual forum so that's why I refrain.... unless told otherwise by the powers at be   ;)
Shin started this thread ......... ;D ;D ;D

I forgot:  it's a bit dated now but

Surviving Depression: A Catholic Approach by Sr. Hermes.

Do as you like. :)

Depression, like all illnesses, always has a spiritual component.  But it always has a biological, psychological, and social component also since all human experiences contain all those things.

There are too many kinds of depressions to get into here but the things mentioned in this thread will help all of them to more or less degree in terms of prevention and/or lessening the severity of an episode.  (Depression is chronic usually with remissions and flare ups)  

There is a misconception of depression being just about ones mood.  "The blues" is not the illness of depression.  Depressive illness has other symptoms: loss of the ability to concentrate, feeling like one is in a tub of molasses trying to get out of it (serious biological fatigue), disrupted sleep, slowly diminishing ability to think rationally and thus make sound decisions, and loss of enjoyment of things that used to be enjoyable.  Key to knowing when to get medical help is when these symptoms are interfering with one's ability to live life.  

PET scans, fMRI, SPECT imaging all show changes in brain structure and function with the presence of depression.  It is also pretty evident with this same technology that learning new coping skills, increasing positive social supports, and medicine ALL can positively change brain function and structure in the healing process.  It simply depends on the individual situation and needs.  Some need medicine; others don't; some need medicine for life (definitely true for bipolar illness), others only long enough to stabilize symptoms so that the person can wrap those other supports around him or herself.  ALL would do well to increase social supports and learn new and improved coping skills for life stresses.  

Spiritual aspects?  The illness can distort ones healthy sense of guilt, sense of trust in forgiveness, and increase the sense of unworthiness to a very unhealthy level that robs the person of joy.  These things are not sin in this case but the result of the thinking distortions mentioned above.  On a positive note, even while ill, a person calling out to God even if in anger or seeming despair (usually this is a symptom of loss of rationality) is a sure sign of a faith filled relationship with God........ read Job and Psalms and one sees the exact same kind of emotional intensity in the God-man relationship.  

Acadia as in the catechism is a reference to prayer, temptations in prayer and so on.  It has nothing to do with depression.  One who is depressed (not the blues remember), is not lazy, sinful, weak in faith, or any such thing; anymore than is a person struggling with cancer.  It's the opposite.  

And I often get flack for this one: demons have nothing to do with moods.

OK enough rambling or I'll write a book. ;)

Bailey,

I love your 'tub of molasses' analogy - it's great. When I'm feeling lazy, weak, super irritable but guilty about it, etc. I call myself feeling like 'pond scum'.I'm also so glad to hear someone say that it's not 'the blues'. That is such a prevalent idea out there. Pessimism or apathy is certainly not 'the blues'.

It's also good to hear a professional verbalizing that depression has both spiritual and material (for lack of a better word) aspects. That's all too infrequent, it seems. Separating our state from the spiritual realm may be part of the problem. Maybe the depressed person's inner 'connection' with Him is broken and concupiscence  allows the physical to follow? Does that sound right to you?  ???

Maybe the depressed person's inner connection with Him is still intact but that person irrationally thinks He is not there, when in fact He is always there.   :)
Concupiscence is a given.  I'm not sure what it does.  I guess it does different things to different people.  My experience has been that when I am fighting God, which I do more often than serenely "follow,"  it makes my illnesses or acceptance of my illnesses more difficult.  But even when seemingly in perfect union with His will, my ailments don't go away.  So I'm not sure sin in any form contributes to illness, mental or otherwise.  I'm not sure how to think of this.  Hmmmmmmmm............  nite.

That was a nice context you put things in Bailey2. :)

I enjoyed reading all of it it provokes a good deal of thought! About acedia, how people who are depressed feel and think..

But care to explain further the last comment? Because you know the ordinary role of demons is temptation, and this has to do with influencing what we feel as well as what we think.

Have you ever read Fr. Ripperger's "Introduction to the Science of Mental Health"? If you haven't, I highly recommend it. It rebuilds the science of psychology in Catholicism from the start, from the ground up.

I have all three volumes, which I have skimmed.  I do intend to read it at some point but it is extremely heady while I tend to be extremely practical regarding what helps and hurts people from a treatment perspective. 

Let me think about that demon question.  I have a feeling you are baiting me since we have had that discussion before.........  ;D ;D ;D
But since I was the one that made the statement and this is a spiritual forum, you are right to question it. 

[quote author=Shin link=topic=141.msg802#msg802 date=1265772827
 Because you know the ordinary role of demons is temptation, and this has to do with influencing what we feel as well as what we think.
[/quote]

If a person is crippled, he/she cannot walk.  If a person is stricken by depression or other mental illness, he/she can't think or feel correctly.  Demons don't make these illnesses.  But the soul, which is neither feelings or thoughts, can cry out to God in either case in the infirmity and God is merciful.  No one questions the role of demons using the mind and feelings when one has Alzheimer's. 

If a person is crippled, he/she cannot walk.  If a person is stricken by depression or other mental illness, he/she can't think or feel correctly.  Demons don't make these illnesses.  But the soul, which is neither feelings or thoughts, can cry out to God in either case in the infirmity and God is merciful.  No one questions the role of demons using the mind and feelings when one has Alzheimer's. 
[/quote]

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

No..... unless the same goes for leprosy.  Sin does not cause illness except in the sense of original sin and the fall of man.  This is true if the illness is in the skin or brain.  And nothing can change the genes or cause them to be any different than they would have been when egg and sperm united.  Ah heck, ALL genetic combinations are flawed!

But yes.... unhealthy practices and not getting treatment when one should can be examples of succumbing to evil/demonic influence  (ie. sinning) in the sense that pride usually is at the root of such behaviors.  And as said above, unhealthy practices (like saying, 'I can handle this by myself' and not seeking help even though one watches ones behaviors deteriorate) can negatively alter brain function over time.  Virtuous practices (praying, taking care of the body and mind, being humble enough to seek help and support when needed, etc) can effect positive brain changes.  

But, I really don't accept that the progressive loss of rationality is directly caused by evil (demonic influence).  I do accept that sinning can contribute to a hastening of illness progression (just as it does for heart or diabetic conditions) or it may have nothing to do with it; depends on the individual and what type..... (incidentally, there is a genetic link between depression and heart disease  :o).

Or maybe I didn't understand your comment.  :confuzed:  :)

Boy this thread is getting off track.......... :-[   ..........but all of the above suggestions are good!   O:)

If seeking help, etc. can cause positive brain changes, then it stands to reason that the inverse is also true and that negative practices and thoughts can effect negative brain changes (and those negative brain changes could then be inherited genetically). It's kind of a take-off on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Anyway, that's what I was talking/posting about earlier.

I have noticed that I personally get a huge lift when I: 1) receive the Eucharist, 2) go to Adoration, 3) pray, 4) help someone else, whether it be physically, emotionally, or just with a smile, and 5) do a virtuous action, especially if no-one knows about it.

I have been reading a little book written by Fr. Daniel Considine, S.J. (RIP) Confidence in God. I came to a portion that speaks to this thread so perfectly.


Now this in no way denigrates anyone who has a diagnosed disease with a cause that is beyond their will, as Bailey has posted and Fr. Groeschel has said. It is not at all intended, as a guilt inducer, either. As Fr. Considine also wrote that the vast majority of human beings blame God for something. However, it's certainly been a help for me with those things in which my will does have a say. Not that I'm able to internalize the words yet. Seemingly that will come with time. :-[

Well, I want to note that the scriptures do testify to physical illnesses being caused by demons, so we can't limit them only to the spiritual, which actually is the realm of the mental. They're almost words of the same meaning.

I think, though I don't know, that your experience is with the secular side of this science, but you do not have much experience with the spiritual warfare angle. But, let me ask, how do you know what you know about the spiritual warfare side and the influences of angels, demons and God and the devil? Have you studied this? :)

Shin posted:


How about we develop a prayer to the two archangels and the Saint intimately involved - Sts. Michael and Rafael and Dymphna? Is that a workable idea on this forum?

If seeking help, etc. can cause positive brain changes, then it stands to reason that the inverse is also true and that negative practices and thoughts can effect negative brain changes (and those negative brain changes could then be inherited genetically). It's kind of a take-off on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Anyway, that's what I was talking/posting about earlier.  (ah, we are in agreement....... but I don't understand how negative brain changes can affect genes? )

I have noticed that I personally get a huge lift when I: 1) receive the Eucharist, 2) go to Adoration, 3) pray, 4) help someone else, whether it be physically, emotionally, or just with a smile, and 5) do a virtuous action, especially if no-one knows about it.  Me too..... #1,3,4,5.  See?  Virtue makes for healthy brain (giggle)





[/quote]

I think, though I don't know, that your experience is with the secular side of this science, but you do not have much experience with the spiritual warfare angle. But, let me ask, how do you know what you know about the spiritual warfare side and the influences of angels, demons and God and the devil? Have you studied this? :)
[/quote]

My intellect is trained secularly.  I know nothing intellectually about angels, demons, God, and the devil.  I have not studied eschatology or theology.  Spiritual warfare we have all experienced in our own unique way deep in the heart and soul.  There also, we experience grace.  I have much experience with both.   :)

On another forum, there is a thread of prayer for those with mental and emotional illnesses.  This is a good idea Brigid.  

My intellect is trained secularly.  I know nothing intellectually about angels, demons, God, and the devil.  I have not studied eschatology or theology.  Spiritual warfare we have all experienced in our own unique way deep in the heart and soul.  There also, we experience grace.  I have much experience with both.   :)

On another forum, there is a thread of prayer for those with mental and emotional illnesses.  This is a good idea Brigid.  
[/quote]

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.  :D Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person. It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many. :)

Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.  :D
The science of the Saints is a science of the heart and soul; not one of books.  Many Saints read nothing scholarly and were graced to sanctity as they experienced spiritual warfare within themselves.  The seer of today's feast day is case in point.  Experience is everything.  O:)


Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person.  Should make for a good Lenten sacrifice  ;D; but due to the volume and my other commitments, I will only be able to read sections pertaining to the discussion here....... feel free to point out the volume and chapters most pertinent.  Thank you.

It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many. :)   Are you throwing down a gantlet?  And is there a tone of superiority in that challenge, as if one would be coming up to your intellectual level?   ;D ;D    You would make a good college professor.  ;)     :happyroll:


Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.
[/quote]

If Galileo and Copernicus only studied ancient Church texts, where would science be?  How much would we know of treating illnesses now if the physicians of past only continued to put holy relics on the ill to chase off demons?  For thousands of years, there has been this tension between Church and science.  Both are necessary and sometimes secular science produces antibiotics, x-ray machines (see inside the body?  :o horrors), and anesthesia (oh, they aren't dead, they are really asleep!)
Here then, for a layman: www.ncpd.org   O:)

And as I hope, all this discussion is with respectful filial kinship in the Lord (as the protestants would say).   :pathead:

I will look for the book by Fr. Ripperger. I have read The Way of the Pilgrim  which is about a monk who is reading the Philokalia, and really enjoyed it. I was able (with His Grace) to say the Jesus Prayer constantly for about a year (I can't remember just how long as it was a few decades ago). However it sounds l as if reading the Philokalia might be a good place to start for me. ???

If Galileo and Copernicus only studied ancient Church texts, where would science be?  How much would we know of treating illnesses now if the physicians of past only continued to put holy relics on the ill to chase off demons?  For thousands of years, there has been this tension between Church and science.  Both are necessary and sometimes secular science produces antibiotics, x-ray machines (see inside the body?  :o horrors), and anesthesia (oh, they aren't dead, they are really asleep!)
Here then, for a layman: www.ncpd.org   O:)

We all can see now that the 'supposed'(?) tension between science and the Church is not necessary or true at all (for example, look at the Jesuits huge telescope - nuclear? - in Rome). There is no need that secular practitioners or scientists should have any difficulty with Church teaching/practices. Even the 'scientific method' was developed by monks. Why can't we mesh the too? It makes pragmatic sense to me, at least.

And as I hope, all this discussion is with respectful filial kinship in the Lord (as the protestants would say).   :pathead:



[/quote]

That was how I found the Philokalia too, reading the Way of the Pilgrim then deciding, "Well I have to have this book."

Yes, the first volume might be helpful. It's a beautiful book, I take a number of quotations from it.

Well, actually, let me put it this way. Fr. Ripperger is detailed, Thomistic, and rich. If you don't mind the Summa, or a university textbook, you shouldn't mind him too much. And he'll be quite precise about what he's talking about but you will need to build on concepts, i.e. learn new words and build on how he means them precisely not vaguely, and how they connect to the next.

The Philokalia on the other hand will be a mix of mysticism and practical direct advice about how to deal with virtue, sin and the influence of angels and demons, and discernment. New words to learn here also, and as with the first a handy glossary of definitions.

Both of these books will define and separate the interior faculties of man precisely, so that you can with more perfect introspection examine and analyze each of the particular parts of your mind at work, and what they are capable of doing or not, whether they are spiritual or spiritual/physical, and so forth.

Fr. Ripperger's will more thoroughly do this, the Philokalia less so, in passing as if assuming you already know, which will require trips to the glossary and a notebook if you wish to understand that part.



Fr. Ripperger's book would be here (http://www.sensustraditionis.org/psychology.html). The relevant chapter would be chapter 10, page 529, right in the middle of the book.

Oh I know enough not to recommend too hard books to people, they never read them or are simply confused by them. There's plenty too much to handle for ordinary folks.

Which is one of the reasons colleges have become so dumbed down -- they assume everyone should go, everyone should not, a large portion of the population actually should only be pursuing blue collar work, which is causing a lot of trouble these days -- but that is besides the point.

I've read plenty of books too rich for most, and too rich for me. When I was younger I generally read them anyway, now I tend to put them aside. The Mensa people, I can only marvel at how quick they are.  ;)

College professors generally have to have college degrees. Perhaps it is my father who has rubbed off on me. :)

A layman's very easy to read introduction to demonic activity that does not focus on the mental aspects, but more on the practical dealing with it, would be something like 'An Exorcist Tells His Story' by Fr. Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome. But this is more focused on the extraordinary rather than ordinary temptation, which frankly, most Catholic books just assume you already know about and don't go into great detail about so that people nowadays who have no idea what they are doing completely miss it when they do read about it, rather like when they read about it in scriptures. :)

If I had a simple book focused on ordinary temptation sufficiently detailedly I'd recommend it, but I don't. They all focus on other matters largely,treating it indirectly, with that directly just a portion of.  O:)

I suppose I could quote both to show the difference:

The Philokalia:

On Prayer: One Hundred and Fifty-Three Texts

79. Surely, when you do realize where you are, you will gladly sorrow and, like Isaiah, will reproach yourself because, being unclean, and dwelling in the midst of an unclean people - that is, of enemies - you dare to stand before the Lord of hosts (cf. Isa. 6:5).

80. If you pray truly, you will gain great assurance; angels will come to you as they came to Daniel, and they will illuminate you with knowledge of the inner essences of created things (cf. Dan. 2:19).

81. Know that the holy angels encourage us to pray and stand beside us, rejoicing and praying for us (cf. Tobit 12:12). Therefore, if we are negligent and admit thoughts from the enemy, we greatly provoke the angels. For while they struggle hard on our behalf we do not even take the trouble to pray to God for ourselves, but we despise their services to us and, abandoning their Lord and God, we consort with unclean demons.

82. Pray gently and calmly, sing with understanding and rhythm; then you will soar like a young eagle high in the heavens.

83. Psalmody calms the passions and curbs the uncontrolled impulses in the body; and prayer enables the intellect to activate its own energy.

84. Prayer is the energy which accords with the dignity of the intellect; it is the intellect's true and highest activity.

85. Psalmody appertains to the wisdom of the world of multi­plicity; prayer is the prelude to the immaterial knowledge of the One.

86. Spiritual knowledge has great beauty: it is the helpmate of prayer, awakening the noetic power of the intellect to contem­plation of divine knowledge.

87. If you have not yet received the gift of prayer or psalmody, persevere patiently and you will receive it.

88. 'And He spake a parable to them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to lose heart.' So do not lose heart and despair because you have not yet received the gift of prayer. You will receive it later. In the same parable we read: 'Though I do not fear God, or man's opinion, yet because this widow troubles me, I will vindicate her.' Similarly, God will speedily vindicate those who cry to Him day and night (cf. Luke 18:1-8). Take heart, then, and persevere diligently in holy prayer.

Introduction to the Science of Mental Health:

Page 1, Chapter 1:

If a science is defined as an organized body of knowledge of things through their causes (1), then the goal of any science of psychology must, by its very nature, be to arrive at the causes of mental health and illness. But this presupposes knowledge of the intellect itself as well as those faculties which may have some influence on the intellect. Moreover, it is apparent that modern psychology has not fully grasped the nature of the intellect itself since it has not been able to provide an accurate or complete definition of mental illness. Before any science engaged in an investigation of its proper object, it is necessary to know those things which constitute each science in general in order to be certain that one's science is engaging its object properly. In other words, one must know those things which are required for each science to be certain that the particular science under question fulfills the requirements necessary to comprise any valid science. . .

One of the fundamental misunderstandings of modern psychology relates to the material object. Since the Thomistic/realist understanding of man is that man is a composite of body and soul, we have reached our first fundamental difference with the way modern psychology views man. Modern psychology views man as nothing more than a physical or material thing. (16) However, since the faculties of man reside in the body and soul composite or in the soul alone, and since the intellect is one of these faculties, any valid psychology must recognize that its object of study is not merely material. Rather, man's intellect has three parts, two of which are immaterial and perform their functions independently of the body. Psychology has for its primary material object the intellect of man, for the science of mental health essentially studies the human intellect. but since the human intellect depends on other faculties for its knowledge and since other faculties can have a direct and indirect effect on the intellect, psychology studies secondarily those things and faculties of man which affect the human intellect. Some of those faculties are likewise immaterial (e.g. the will) and this must be kept in mind regarding the material object of psychology. It is because modern psychology has departed from its proper understanding of man's ontological constitution that it has not had much success in curing modern man's psychology illnesses.

The formal object is the point of view taken toward the material object and since psychology has as its primary concern mental health, then its point of view or ratio will be from the perspective of health. Therefore, in a secondary fashion, psychology will look at those faculties and things which affect the health of the intellect. This is what essentially separates it from epistemology, for epistemology studies the human intellect from the point of view of how it knows rather than from the point of view of its health. Moreover, psychology also differs from the philosophy of man insofar as it considers only a part of man, i.e. the intellect and those things which affect the intellect, as well as things outside of man which affect the intellect. (17)

Interior Causes, page. 273:

Per accidens mental illness which affects the memory can be healed in a few ways. The first way is that when a memory that disturbs the individual is recalled, the cogitative power can be moved by the possible intellect and will to disassociate in the memory the thing causing the trouble. Sometimes it is necessary for the possible intellect to make an act of judgement about the memory and with an act of will, reformulate the image or add to the image that which is curative of the thing remembered. Consequently, the memory will be re-stored and as a result, it will be cured. It may happen that one will have to perform this process repeatedly to habituate the various powers about the recalled memory as well as to habituate the memory itself regarding that specific memory. Conversely, one can cause damage to the memorative power by falsifying the sense species and moving the memory to store it in that fashion. Often when an experience is painful, people will remember it based upon the emotional pain involved rather than as it actually occured because through an act of judgement or from the cogitative power, the person alters the phantasm so as to be in congruity with the pain rather than keeping the species whole or as it is. Hence, someone can begin causing problems for himself merely by the way he approaches certain experiences and this can have an effect on memory.

My dear Shin,
I have to read this when I get back!  Off to another hockey tournament; out of town the long weekend.
(giggle)  Hockey is life.  Look out!   :hospitaltrip:  The iceman cometh!   ;D

I think I'll need to read both the first volume of the Philokalia and Fr. Rippingers book. Is there one of his volumes that speaks to this any more than the others?

We all can see now that the 'supposed'(?) tension between science and the Church is not necessary or true at all (for example, look at the Jesuits huge telescope - nuclear? - in Rome). There is no need that secular practitioners or scientists should have any difficulty with Church teaching/practices. Even the 'scientific method' was developed by monks. Why can't we mesh the too? It makes pragmatic sense to me, at least.

Yes,  I was playing.  it's getting too serious..... i'll stop.......... copied above.  will read in hotel....... got to go.......
blessings

Well, he now sells only one book, which is his three books in one volume. :)

I was packing here and  tried to find this: The relevant chapter would be chapter 10, page 529, right in the middle of the book.

My copy is in three seperate volumes that start at Pg 1 so there is no p529.  could you give me the volume and the title of the chapter instead.  I'll have to get it when I get back Monday afternoon.

That would be chapter ten in volume 2. :)

I can't believe you actually got the book!  ;D

I'm sorry I didn't catch your playing. My fault. Don't stop posting on this. It's fun. It lets me use my "grey cells" and they don't get 'out to play' much.

I'm sorry I didn't catch your playing. My fault. Don't stop posting on this. It's fun. It lets me use my "grey cells" and they don't get 'out to play' much.
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Oh good!  But, I can only post today and tomorrow as I will be giving up forums for Lent.  I'll explain in other section. 

One of the fundamental misunderstandings of modern psychology relates to the material object. Since the Thomistic/realist understanding of man is that man is a composite of body and soul, we have reached our first fundamental difference with the way modern psychology views man. Modern psychology views man as nothing more than a physical or material thing. (16) However, since the faculties of man reside in the body and soul composite or in the soul alone, and since the intellect is one of these faculties, any valid psychology must recognize that its object of study is not merely material. Rather, man's intellect has three parts, two of which are immaterial and perform their functions independently of the body.

How does he reconcile this with the Incarnation?  And I thought the soul was infused (ie. fused, one with, not alongside of)? 


Interior Causes, page. 273:

Per accidens mental illness which affects the memory can be healed in a few ways. The first way is that when a memory that disturbs the individual is recalled, the cogitative power can be moved by the possible intellect and will to disassociate in the memory the thing causing the trouble. Sometimes it is necessary for the possible intellect to make an act of judgement about the memory and with an act of will, reformulate the image or add to the image that which is curative of the thing remembered. Consequently, the memory will be re-stored and as a result, it will be cured. It may happen that one will have to perform this process repeatedly to habituate the various powers about the recalled memory as well as to habituate the memory itself regarding that specific memory. Conversely, one can cause damage to the memorative power by falsifying the sense species and moving the memory to store it in that fashion. Often when an experience is painful, people will remember it based upon the emotional pain involved rather than as it actually occured because through an act of judgement or from the cogitative power, the person alters the phantasm so as to be in congruity with the pain rather than keeping the species whole or as it is. Hence, someone can begin causing problems for himself merely by the way he approaches certain experiences and this can have an effect on memory.

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This is a very good stance on memory and the foundation of distinguishing between good and bad therapy.  

 Moreover, it is apparent that modern psychology has not fully grasped the nature of the intellect itself since it has not been able to provide an accurate or complete definition of mental illness.

Modern science did not grasp the nature of epilepsy, infections, or leprosy a few years back.  Present inaccuracies does not mean there won't be accuracy  in the future.  I just read an article in a psychotherapy magazine about how the definition of mental illness is now becoming more precise due to neuroscience.


Some of those faculties are likewise immaterial (e.g. the will) and this must be kept in mind regarding the material object of psychology.

The will is a function of the executive functions of the brain (soul and body fused, not seperate) and is easily seen on SPECT, both when working properly and also when impaired.  It is quite material.

I suppose coming from a philosophical viewpoint, the term faculties is different from that of psychology and science but if that is true then one cannot compare apples and oranges in ones understanding of mental illness, nor claim one superior to another.   ;D

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Oh I know enough not to recommend too hard books to people, they never read them or are simply confused by them.  I think this is a very arrogant statement.  There's plenty too much to handle for ordinary folks.   I consider myself an ordinary folk, thankfully!

Which is one of the reasons colleges have become so dumbed down -- they assume everyone should go, everyone should not, a large portion of the population actually should only be pursuing blue collar work, which is causing a lot of trouble these days -- but that is besides the point.

If the world worked according to your shoulds, my husband would not have a PHD in Physics, nor have several patents for ideas that have saved hundreds of lives.  Instead, he would be a TV repair man like his father since he had learning disabilities and school was difficult for him.  Under your system, he would have been identified as the large portion of ungifted majority ineligible for higher education.

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Of course!  I'm open minded.

This is a very good stance on memory and the foundation of distinguishing between good and bad therapy.  
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I'd hope any Pdoc I have to have will have read this.

I have to agree with him on this. I don't feel that "executive functions of the brain" are superior (as in ensuring a lasting affect, such as in therapy). I know that this is the more popular thoughts and I'm not surprised that changes do show up on SPECT, however to me this is more due to one thing effecting other facets, not that the will causes the changes. Maybe the executive functions of the brain imitate the executive functions of businesses or politics (and we've seen where that leads ;D).

Oh I know enough not to recommend too hard books to people, they never read them or are simply confused by them.  I think this is a very arrogant statement.  There's plenty too much to handle for ordinary folks.   I consider myself an ordinary folk, thankfully!

Which is one of the reasons colleges have become so dumbed down -- they assume everyone should go, everyone should not, a large portion of the population actually should only be pursuing blue collar work, which is causing a lot of trouble these days -- but that is besides the point.

If the world worked according to your shoulds, my husband would not have a PHD in Physics, nor have several patents for ideas that have saved hundreds of lives.  Instead, he would be a TV repair man like his father since he had learning disabilities and school was difficult for him.  Under your system, he would have been identified as the large portion of ungifted majority ineligible for higher education.

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Well, I don't think it's arrogant at all, certainly that's not how I feel saying it. I think of myself as someone often happier doing blue collar work. I'm just saying the simple truth. Many people I've met do not want to read complicated books, have difficulty with them, and would only be troubled if I suggested them and excuse themselves if I gave them to them. That's not arrogance, it's just how life is. I don't make any judgements against them for this, why would I or anyone? ??? Not everyone is as good a reader as everyone else. It would be wrong for me to insist they do something they do not like all the time. A dyslexic friend of mine never wants me to recommend books to him for example, but that is extreme, other friends too who are not do not want to read and it is too difficult especially if I give them a book with long convoluted paragraphs and words. :)

Just like if someone tried to give me a some higher math books to read.

Some of the Mensa people pick up languages and think circles around me, I know plenty of people who are very quick, and far more intelligent than other people in the swiftness of their thoughts and ease of memory. They may not be as sensible, make the right decisions, but they are far more suitable for university than other people. So what's the issue?

Some people prefer sports, some people prefer carpentry, other people like working white collar, the world is not one gigantic column of marching college graduates, sorry.  :D I think you saying 'it's arrogant' is bringing something to the discussion that reading in something not there at all. You can say it's inaccurate that many people aren't suited for college, but you shouldn't be saying it's arrogant. People's value isn't based on their intelligence, and trying to make everyone reach a capacity they are not happy in is actually, what is going to cause problems for people. I'd never be happy as a math teacher, and plenty other people wouldn't either. And there are plenty of people who are called to be plumbers, farmers, carpenters, and other blue collar workers -- that's their vocation, not college, given to them by God and what the gifts they were given are for.  :D

I'm not making any system at all, just stating how life is. Certainly saying many people are happier not going to college and white collar work shouldn't be the only work or 'the best' work doesn't mean your husband would have any different life whatsoever. It means simply that people who -do not want- to go, because -they are not meant to-, would have better lives than if they are forced to by a society that requires a degree that is not needed and only puts people to work they neither like nor can afford. :)

I don't value white collar work more than blue collar at all. In fact, it's an old saying that you should always teach your child a trade so that child never goes hungry and you fail as a parent if you don't. White collar work is much more ephemeral than a trade, and often much less real 'work' the kind of work that a person needs to do for his own sake.

I have to agree with him on this. I don't feel that "executive functions of the brain" are superior (as in ensuring a lasting affect, such as in therapy). I know that this is the more popular thoughts and I'm not surprised that changes do show up on SPECT, however to me this is more due to one thing effecting other facets, not that the will causes the changes. Maybe the executive functions of the brain imitate the executive functions of businesses or politics (and we've seen where that leads ;D).
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Good morning!   :)

I mis-communicated.  I don't think the will causes anything, including brain scans lighting up.  I think the will and the brain cannot be separated. They are both one in the same, biological functions.  But, I think that God is in that and doesn't want or need for things to be separated material and immaterial.  Soul and body fused.  

But Bailey2,

The soul is separated from the body in death, and still thinks, wills and remembers and communicates. Just like the angels do. :)

Well, I don't think it's arrogant at all, certainly that's not how I feel saying it. I think of myself as someone often happier doing blue collar work. I'm just saying the simple truth. Many people I've met do not want to read complicated books, have difficulty with them, and would only be troubled if I suggested them and excuse themselves if I gave them to them. That's not arrogance, it's just how life is. I don't make any judgements against them for this, why would I or anyone? ???

Sorry.  Misinterpreted.  Been taking a lot of heat from teachers.  Both my sons have ADHD and my youngest also has a reading processing problem and dyslexia.  It's been a challenge with schools that they not be labeled or funneled.  So a bit of defensiveness on my part.  

Agreed..... I was referring to in life only.  I think we are saying the same thing.
Good morning Shin!  I am just scanning down here one post at a time before I do the morning riot!!!   ;)

Which would be NOW; later!

Good morning!  ;D

No problemo!!

God must trust you as a mother a lot to give you sons with such challenges! God bless 'em all the more I pray!

It's just that I'm so happy when people actually read a book I recommend, it's surprising!

Good morning!   :)

I mis-communicated.  I don't think the will causes anything, including brain scans lighting up.  I think the will and the brain cannot be separated. They are both one in the same, biological functions.  But, I think that God is in that and doesn't want or need for things to be separated material and immaterial.  Soul and body fused.  
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I agree with you that originally that was what was intended by God at the Creation, however I think that's a main thing that Original Sin did. We will find out post-humously, but I think that that is what a glorified body is all about - material and non-material fused. Shin, am I really Scripturally messed up about this?

(I realize, Bailey, that you will not be able to continue this conversation 'til after Lent. I also applaud your decision to attend more fully to your family. Please don't forget us, though.)

:thumbsup: :+:

(I realize, Bailey, that you will not be able to continue this conversation 'til after Lent. I also applaud your decision to attend more fully to your family. Please don't forget us, though.)
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it's not lent yet and I'm still peeking.   :happyroll:

it's not lent yet and I'm still peeking.   :happyroll:
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Good! Blessed Mardi Gras ;D.

Well, it's nice to have all Lent to answer something as complicated and nuanced as this.  :D

 :rotfl: