Saints' Discussion Forums

I have looked in many commentaries, but I haven't been able to come up with a contemporary version of the purple cloth spoken of that Lydia worked with. Does anyone have any ideas?

Anyone have any ideas? I've wondered about this for years. ???

I'm not sure I understand the question? What is it you're looking for exactly? Cloth of the same purple as in the Bible? Did I miss something?  :)

Well, commentaries I've read have said that 'purple cloth' referred to cloth/clothing for the very well to do or even royalty (due to the expense of purple die). The NT mentions it when it doesn't mention the specific careers of many/most others (except St. Paul of course), so it must be important to us to understand. However how does it relate to us and what we do in the present culture. Is it a reference to leaving rich and 'high society' ways, or.......? What would be the equivalent thing (or idea?) in our present time?

Well it's a liturgical color..

Purple for royalty yes.. for Christ I would think..

Hmm.. I know where to look it up, in Lapide, St. Thomas, or Haydock.. I will take a look.

I found this on-line:


Hth!
 O:)

So what do you suppose that means for us today?

Hmm.. in the Douay it's just 'a seller of purple' which could also mean she simply sold the expensive ink... though it depends on what the word is behind the translation..

One of the scriptures mention it being forbidden for a time from being worn by any but the high priest.. and at another time giving it as a reward..

During the crucifixion the cloak thrown over Jesus's shoulders was a color of called either scarlet or purple...



And thou shalt make the tabernacle in this manner: Thou shalt make ten curtains of fine twisted linen, and violet and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, diversified with embroidery.

Thou shalt make also a veil of violet and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen, wrought with embroidered work, and goodly variety:

Exodus 26

So when his accusers saw his glory proclaimed, and him clothed with purple, they all fled away.

1 Machabees 10:64

And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.

Apocalypse 17:4

If I had St. Isidore's Etymologies I perhaps he might have some of the symbolism of it in there. I couldn't find anything in my commentaries so far.

Thank you for all your help and research. I really appreciate it. :)

Everything means something.. :) If we look deep enough.. and scripture is bottomless!

Could anyone help me with this. What are the symbols of the four gospel writers? I know its eagle for John. What does eagle symbolise?  Also the other gospel writers have certain symbols which look like a bull etc. These four apostles are painted on my church ceiling with their symbols, and I stare at them every time wondering what they mean ???

Christian tradition has long connected the authors of the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) with the four "living creatures" that surround God's throne, as described in Rev 4:5-11, in the following pairs:

Matthew = Human/Angel
Mark = Lion
Luke = Ox
John = Eagle

Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the centre and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.
The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Rev 4:5-11)

Thanks Martin, I find it interesting . I wonder what it all means, the living creatures with six wings and eyes all around?

Brigid, regarding the Purple which is how the thread began... I've heard of the purple of martyrdom.

That's an interesting thought!



But weren't the seraphim supposed to have six wings. ???

I listened to a sermon on line where they talked about all this stuff but I can't remember which sermon and I can't remember much of the details. (I was really tired at the time. In one ear out the other unfortunately)
I do remember though everything I heard and read concerning that wonder worker St Vincent Ferrer who had a miraculous gift of explaining obscure passages of scripture and I would be surprised if he hasn't mentioned the above. He Himself was the Angel of the Apocalypse sent throughout the world to proclaim repentance and the end times.

I struggle a lot with Apocalypse trying to make sense of it but that's why we have the saints to inform us.

Maybe our resident Keeper of the good books, Shin, might be able to shed some light on the topic.

Back to purple again Brigid...
Doesn't the color purple represent Royalty. martyrdom and penance?
During Lent all the statues in church are covered in purple cloth (penance), and during the crowning of thorns they dressed Our Lord in a purple robe and went down on their knees in mockery to do Him homage (royalty and suffering).

So this might be a reference to our need for penance, suffering, homage (keeping our eye always on Him) and humility in our careers?
 

It's amazing what we can learn just from a color.
Everything in scripture is so packed full of meaning.
Was it St Alphonus (I'm open to corection)  who wanted to write on the Our Father and after many months couldn't get past the first two words?

Hmm... I wonder what it could mean. I know that some saints replace angels that fell, and are given the graces necessary for this, taking their thrones.

Also, priests, and other people of special note have more than one, or especially powerful (from the higher ranked choirs) guardian angels. Hmm.

What you say really gives me pause. Hm....

So it sounds like what your talking about is Saints/saints becoming royalty in heaven.

Could it be that the four Gospel writers have been given a very high place in heaven above others? :-\

Well, after a fashion.. more along the lines of taking up the graces and privileges and abilities that make them capable of filling a position formerly possessed by angels that fell.

In other words, what abilities, responsibilities, privileges, etc. those angels had, but when they fell left unfulfilled, are now instead given to others, who are supplied with what is necessary to make up for the fact that they are not angels.

So I was speculating lightly whether or not these apostles were given places in the Seraphic choir. I don't really have any real evidence to say though, so it's just lightest speculation.

Or perhaps these seraphim were the guardian angels or helpers of those apostles.. But again, no evidence whatsoever.  :D

So, Shin, how would that make "Lydia, a seller of purple"? ???

Oh I see! Royalty yes! I got so distracted by the angels I forgot about the purple!  :D

Certainly the Seraphim are among the highest of the high royalty of Heaven.

Hmm. Now this is truly getting me thoughtful.

Oh, good. ;D

Brigid, tell me more about Lydia. I don't know anything about her. ???

And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, did hear: whose heart the Lord opened to attend to those things which were said by Paul. Acts 16:14

That's all that's written about her.

Brigid, Autumn Rose gave an answer to that earlier in the thread, if that's what you are looking for. Let me quote what Autumn Rose found.

So, Autumn Rose is saying that the reason it was put in the NT specifically is due to Lydia being a business woman and tied to expensive things?

Is she a saint , by any chance? Saint Lydia. I know it is  a common Catholic name in India.

In some places it appears she was a Saint, however there is also a martyr from the second cent. with the same name. Oh, I goofed because I didn't add Acts 16:15. :imsorry:

And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Well, the Seraphim are the highest choir of angels.. they are the closest angels to God and worship Him and experience the fires of His love by nature most closely.. (not accounting for any perhaps changes of position due to other graces) and are most notable for the fires of their love of God.. ...

So they are the royalty of royalty of the angels..

Purple is used in the veil around the tabernacle..

Mary is often equated with the tabernacle itself.. then Christ within..

In the year that king Ozias died, I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and elevated: and his train filled the temple. Upon it stood the seraphims: the one had six wings, and the other had six wings: with two they covered his face, and with two they covered his feet, and with two they hew. And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory. And the lintels of the doors were moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts.

And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar.  And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed. And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send? and who shall go for us? And I said: Lo, here am I, send me. And he said: Go, and thou shalt say to this people: Hearing, hear, and understand not: and see the vision, and know it not. Blind the heart of this people, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes: lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.

Isaias 6:1-10

Lydia I have just read some commentary on saying was St. Paul's first convert to Christianity in Europe. And that since Paul and his companions stayed and prayed at her house, it could even be considered the first Christian church in Europe.

'Therefore, my dearly beloved brethren, and most desired, my joy and my crown; so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.'

Philippians 4:1

4:1

The Philippians are St. Paul's joy and crown.

Lydia's name is in reference to a place, I have read, so it's difficult to pursue any particular meaning to her name beyond as far as I can tell - that which normally is what helps uncover more of the meaning of many passages in scripture.

Hmm I see her listen in the Patron Saints' Index as 'Saint Lydia Purpuraria' (meaning purple seller)  :D

You know one thing I get out of all of this is that praying to St. Lydia is a good idea, perhaps she especially wants to be our friend! :) Especially you Brigid!  :D

That wouldn't explain though why He mentions her profession. He does mention the Apostles jobs and that of St. Paul, but not any laymen that I can think of.



You know, you may be right there!

You know, usually it's 'Paul of Tarsus' or 'Augustine of Hippo' or some such thing, in other words the place you come from is your last name, or added to your name.

But for Lydia, the place she comes from -is- her name, effacing her completely in many ways..

Perhaps that very effacement is itself the meaning.

Though that could well be a little too easy and simple an answer for me not knowing any deeper meaning to the name.

Still.. her first name meaning is simply a place, rather than anything else.. and what else we are told is 'purple seller'.

She's associated with the first church.. royalty seller.. you might go very far with that analogy..  :D

You know now I'm thinking of how violets are a symbol for widows.

'A true widow is, in the Church, as a little March violet shedding around an exquisite perfume by the fragrance of her devotion, and almost always hidden under the ample leaves of her lowliness, and by her subdued colouring showing her spirit of mortification. She seeks untrodden and solitary places, not wishing to be disturbed by the conversation of worldlings, the better to preserve the freshness of her heart amidst all the glare with which earthly desires of honours, wealth, and even love may surround her.
"Blessed shall she be," says the Apostle, "if she so remain." (i Cor. vii. 40).

St. Francis de Sales

'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.
(The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:5-12)

In the garden of the Church, Mary gathers three flowers and places them into your hands: the white lily, the red rose, the pale violet. The lily is the symbol of purity of conscience of life. The rose represents that burning love which purifies, perfects and elevates the heart to God. The violet is the emblem of the evangelical mortification which keeps us canditus, et rubicundus ("fresh, and ruddy" Sg 5:10) according to the desire of the Beloved of our heart et pascitur inter lilia. ("who pastures his flock among the lilies" Sg 2:16, Sg 6:2) The picture of the lily draws you away from the world. The image of the rose unites you with the heart of Jesus. Finally, the violet makes you partakers of the fruits of the Cross of Jesus. May the most holy Virgin who presents you with these flowers, find them still in your hands in your last agony as a pledge for entrance into the home to which only the pure lovers of Jesus Crucified are admitted.'

St. Gaspar del Bufalo

'The hermitage is a paradise of delight where the fragrant scents of the virtues are breathed forth like sweet sap or glowing spice-flowers. There the roses of charity blaze in crimson flame and the lilies of purity shine in snowy beauty, and with them the humble violets whom no winds assault because they are content with lowly places; there the myrrh of perfect penance perfumes the air and the incense of constant prayer rises unceasingly.

But why should I call to mind these in particular? For the lovely buds of all the holy virtues glow there many-coloured and graces flourish in an undying greenness beyond the power of words to describe. O hermitage! delight of holy souls, unfailing in your inner sweetness.'

St. Peter Damian

There's a good deal more about violets in 'Mystical Flora'.

May it be so! :crucifix:   Many have begun to ask me why I am not dating or getting married but they don't understand when I tell them I don't want to. I have a Spouse who is ever-faithful, keeps His promises, sustains me and provides for me. What more could I want?  But I pray I stay faithful too.  O:)