Saints' Discussion Forums

St. Francis de Sales

And the two together are priceless!

Truly.. humility is truth..

But not necessarily abjection.

Just so!

I'm not sure what that other word "a..." means but ....... anyone who trusts their self about everything is quite ....... hmmm  ::),  shall we say......... a fool?

But I do think that in some matters, we do need to trust ourselves. 
I am assuming this has to do with salvation or our tendency to sin rather than say, trusting you need to get out of an abusive marriage.  Right?

From the above passage I would take from it that abjection is discovering one is not as self reliant as one presumed and on discovering this is somewhat bewildered, where as humility already knew this to be the case and is not surprised in the least.

Re trusting ourselves,, I humbly disagree  ;D
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.  (Psalm 118: 8-9)
To me that includes "ME"   :o

Even the abusive marriage scenario, It may well be the case that trusting ones own thoughts could be a contributing factor in continuing in the abuse. It usually takes outside coercion to convince someone as to the best action.

I think there is a danger in interpreting this psychologically rather than theologically or through the study of spirituality.  More later.  Late for work

This makes me think, when, interiorly, are we truly relying on God, and when are we relying on self?

What are the different ways, or different degrees we might be free from relying on self, and instead relying on God? What characterizes relying on self, when one is thinking one is not?

In what was might a beginner rely on God, but still in some ways interiorly rely on self?

I think this is where spiritual direction comes in.. We have great difficulty seeing ourselves as we truly are. We tend to look at ourselves through the filter of our own personal biases, preferences and so on. The self will is so deceptive and cunning that really only someone looking in from the outside would be detached enough to see an honest picture. However I personally don't have an SD on a regular basis and it's really only at confession that I can ask for advice on things that trouble me about myself..
It's difficult to find a priest firm enough to deal with the likes of me,  :-\  I so wish they weren't so concerned about hurting feelings. I sometimes goad them into doing so by challenging them on a point of theology. All civility then goes out the window and they tell me what they really think of me while trying to contain their anger. In that way I get a clearer picture of what I really am.
I know it's not the ideal way to go about things but desperate times call for desperate measures and the results can be quite positive.
About four weeks ago I got a good list of where I needed to improve and the priest was on the verge of admitting there was such a place as hell so we both benefitted and still remain good friends.  :)

I don't want you to feel ganged up on, Bailey. I think this discussion may be helpful for lurkers to read, too.

As Catholics we are to follow what the Pope says in matters of faith or morals, even if we interiorly disagree/don't understand it. Whenever we decide for ourselves anything which has been decreed by the Pope, we set ourselves up as our own popes and then as protestants. Although we are to follow our consciences, we are to correctly form those consciences as Catholics. The pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and therefore has the power to "bind and loose".

BTW, in the example of an abusive spouse the Church has said that a Catholic is able to validly defend themselves via separation and if children, safety or finances are involved civil divorce may be necessary for protection. Trust the Church (if one wants to stay Catholic). Although some Saints have pushed for reforms, they always did so within full obedience to the pope of the time while discussing the proposition with him.

I don't know why I would feel ganged up upon when I agree!   :D

Perhaps I am reacting to the fact that most people, Catholics and not, will interpret humility and self-abasement in a secular, if you will, manner.  Hence, "loving" self- abasement is not a good thing for them.  It will influence a feeling of helplessness, which in turn can lead to hopelessness.  It's complicated, say for a person with depression, who will inevitably interpret such things as psychologically negative and personal if he or she doesn't understand the spiritual meaning.  I have seen many reject the Church for the sake of self-protection from increased pain all because of the misunderstanding of these spiritual terms (loving self-abasement) and others like them.  I've also seen "catechized" Catholics still misinterpret these words and develop a devaluation of themselves as God's children (that which we are, sons and daughters of God--says St. Paul) rather than see it as simply as a way of expressing ones incompleteness before God.  We are dust and He is life. 

But yes, in an ideal situation there are spiritual directors who can help a person keep balance or other wise counsel (rather than poor counsel).  And yes, all within church teaching as known within the context of theological development and Church history.

You know, it is very difficult to put to words sometimes............   :-\

I do agree with you, Bailey. And also with Martin in that a holy spiritual director would seem to be the answer.

But you do such a good job Baily.  :D

I agree! You've done it! Deo gratias! Much good food for thought!  :D

Some telling points for thought and interior realization!

There definitely is a good lesson in that Shin.
Never to show partiality. Theres a lot in scripture too concerning that.

Surprising and hope inducing no?

It is so wonderful, however I wonder if all this can lead to Quietism. Of course prayer isn't inaction however being a Carmelite or Carthusian is certainly different than how little the laity often pray.

I realize that this topic would seem to veer away from the initial topic, however prayer and hope are certainly part of humility, to my mind.

Maybe not... "if we want to do something but cannot,"... Cannot being the operative word... If it were the case that it was possible to fulfill the good intention but one did not, that might be a different matter.  :-\

I think the 'or bad' part is of particular note too..

Interesting - that speaks directly to humility!

It makes me think of when the devil offered the whole world to Christ..

That reminds me of a sermon I heard a priest give about confession..
He said thet many people think they haven't commited certain sins but if the intention was there and the only thing lacking was the oportunity, then it is still a sin.

I wonder less why some of the saints accuse themselves of so much..

On the other hand, I know of some other saints who seem to have only a single small sin on their consciences..

Truly our interior lives matter! -Who- we truly are!

Yes I'm beginning to understand this a little bit better of why the saints accused themselves so much and often refer to themselves as miserable sinners.
There's a line in that prayer to the Holy Ghost which says,

If Thou take Thy grace away,
Nothing pure in man will stay
All his good is turned to ill.

It must be that the saints attributed every good they Had to the gratuitous grace of God and never claimed any good as being of themselves.

I love that little piece of poetry..