Saints' Discussion Forums

'Whoever will proudly dispute or contradict, will always stand without the door. Christ, the master of humility, manifests His truth only to the humble and hides Himself from the proud.'

St. Vincent Ferrer

Pride is such a killer!

God help us!  :)

Help us to be humble!

In my confessions I can easily put everything down to pride. Even with working a lot on humility, I know it will be "10 minutes after death" that pride will be defeated.

Humility of Christ teach me....

Does anyone have a list (like on the other thread with St. Alphonsus Liguori 50 maxims) of things that will help with humility (I'm familiar with the cardinal's prayer)?

Quoting some resources..

Saint Benedict laid down twelve degrees of humility:

1. Holy fear of God, walking in the Divine Presence.
2. Renunciation of our own will.
3. Ready obedience.
4. Patience in all sufferings and injuries.
5. Telling our spiritual director or our superior all our thoughts and plans.
6. To enjoy all humiliations, to be pleased with the worst jobs, poor clothing, to love simplicity and poverty.
7. To consider ourselves less than everyone else.
8. To avoid all love of singularity in words and actions.
9. To love and practice silence.
10. To avoid dissolute laughter and jokes.
11. Never to speak in a loud voice and always be modest in our choice of words.
12. To be humble in all of our actions.

He adds that divine love is the payment for sincere humility and promises perfect chastity to anyone who follows these 12 degrees.

St. Bernard of Clairvaux wrote on the subject, the translation of his rendition of St. Benedict's 12 degrees is this, in reverse order as a ladder:

XII. A permanent attitude of bodily; and spiritual prostration.
XI. The speech of a monk should be short, sensible and in a subdued tone.
X. Abstinence from frequent and light laughter.
IX. Reticence, until asked for his opinion.
VIII. Observance of the general rule of the monastery.
VII. Belief in and declaration of one's inferiority to others.
VI. Admission and acknowledgment of one's own unworthiness and useless-ness.
V. Confession of sins.
IV. Patient endurance of hardship and severity in a spirit of obedience.
III. Obedient submission to superiors.
II. Forbearance to press personal desire.
I. Constant abstinence from sin for fear of God.

And adds: THE TWELVE DEGREES OF PRIDE

TAKEN DOWNWARDS

I. Curiosity, when a man allows His sight and other senses to stray after things which do not concern him.
II. An unbalanced state of mind, showing itself in talk unseasonably joyous and sad.
III. Silly merriment, exhibited in too frequent laughter.
IV. Conceit, expressed in much talking.
V. Eccentricity attaching exaggerated importance to one's own conduct.
VI. Self-assertion holding oneself to be more pious than others.
VII. Presumption readiness to undertake anything.
VIII. Defence of wrong-doing.
IX. Unreal confession detected when severe penance is imposed.
X. Rebellion against the rules and the brethren.
XI. Liberty to sin.
XII. Habitual transgression.

For which we have a drawing:

(http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Scala.png)

Just to make it more complicated.. no more helpful with more info. .  :D St. Anselm gives his own version, that is seven degrees of humility which are:

1) To acknowledge oneself contemptible;
2) To grieve on account of this;
3) To confess or admit we are so;
4) To convince our neighbor of this, that is to wish them to believe it;
5) To bear patiently that this be said of us;
6) To suffer oneself to be treated with contempt
7) To love being thus treated

What do the bolded ones mean?

I can see I'm going to have to upload St. Bernard's little book on this subject.

I am working to make it easier for me to update the websites at the moment, once that is done I should be able to put it up.

IX. Is false confessions and exaggerated guilt, the pretense of humility, to put one in the good graces of others or for some other manipulative purpose. False tears and sighs and groans.. But when the penalty is given for this false confession the confessed resents having to pay any..

VII. Is audacity, which St. Bernard says, 'For if a man thinks himself superior to others, is it likely that he will not push himself in front of them? he is the first to take his seat at meetings, the first to intervene in debate. He comes forward without invitation, and with no introduction but his own; he re-opens questions that have been settled, and goes again over work that has been done.'

Oh, dear!

Thankfully I'm already humble hehe.  :)

You know this virtue is the most important of all and it;s the hardest one to achieve.
I almost give up trying. Even when I think I'm being humble I immediately regognise it and that's worse than if I never had tried to be humble in the first place  :-X
I don't trust myself at all with this virtue and for almost 6 months now I've been praying to St Joseph daily for this.
The problem is,, When you think you have it you know then for sure you don't.  :o
What a conundrum!!

martinfegan posted:
:biggrin:


That's the truth.

great thread! :)


that is interesting to me about false confessions and false guilt.... how do we make a good confession, and how does true contrition differ from false contrition?

I think one time, I experienced false contrition cause it was just guilt and I wasn't turning to God's mercy.. but another time, I felt bad for what I did, but I trusted in His mercy and was open to Him. I think maybe false contrition is focused on the self, and true contrition is focused on God - feeling sorry because you hurt Him, but trusting in His mercy?

I really think the false confessions are about the intent to look good by confessing big sins, which can sound twisted but we've seen crocodile tears before -- politicians are experts at such apologies.

Well there's perfect and imperfect contrition, and for Confession both are good. So.. looking up these and considering the broadness of their definitions might be helpful. :)

I've always liked St. Anselm. I do a little better with his list anyway.

1) To acknowledge oneself contemptible;
) To suffer oneself to be treated with contempt
7) To love being thus treated

I have a question. Where does one draw the line between the above and being abused or treated like a door-mat? When does one suffer in silence and when does one speak up against say, verbal abuse? ???

Good question! I do not truly really know so I hesitate to say anything at all..

Perhaps, I think one has to judge the situation, test, and see what method works overall for the best good.

Authority, for example, duties.. the good of others.. other factors weigh in besides exercising outward humility.. that one has to weigh..

That is a wonderful question, and one I've often pondered myself. My hunch would be that if children are involved, that it would be uncharitable and shirking responsibility as a parent to let it continue. Even when the verbal/emotional abuse is unseen by them, the resulting fear, etc. is not unseen. Thing is, I don't know where that line is when no children are involved. :-\

In psychology, there is a diagnosis for this.   :rotfl: :rotflblue:


Seriously though:  In my mind, to confess rightly is simply to do it honestly, in the confessional and out.  Though I have done my share of the above... I have found that honestly and openness fosters tremendous interior growth.  Of course that is easier to do with a steady confessor who knows one well over time.

Humility comes from the word, humus meaning the ground/earth.  In my head I have this metaphor for humility.  To be humble is to be the ground, dirty and yet rich, and happy to be ground.  The ground accepts, in facts draws in the rain and the sunshine and in doing so is fertile enough to produce wonderful things from seeds.  Pride by contrast I think of as a metal roof, repels the rain and the sun and grows nothing.

And accepting abuse in real life apart from metaphor?  I think that has to do with respecting all life, including our own.  Using the same metaphor, if the ground is pounded too much, nothing grows either and it also can't draw in the rain and the sun.  It's surface becomes shiny like the metal roof.  So we must stick up for ourselves!   :boxing:

I found this quote on Saintsquotes.

'The deeper our humility, the higher will be our place in heaven. . As Lucifer wished to raise himself to the highest place in heaven, and in punishment of his pride was cast into the depths of hell, so the soul that humbles herself most profoundly causes Satan to tremble and be confounded, and God exalts her to the glory of paradise.'

~~~St. Paul of the Cross

Honesty and simplicity are like a rudder that help people confess well. I know they've always helped me through my confessions when there was the threat of it all becoming too complicated.  :littlewings:

This quote reminds me that St. Francis of Assisi was given one of the thrones in Heaven that formerly had been held by an angel in Heaven, who had fallen and lost it. He was raised high above because of the depth of his humility. A beautiful story told by one of his brothers who saw it in a vision, if I recall correctly.

'The truly humble man fears only that some honor might be shown him; and if such a thing should happen to him, he is interiorly alarmed and distressed at it; he compares himself with no one, neither his superiors, his inferiors, nor yet with his equals, for he esteems himself the last of all. He despises no one but himself; he desires ardently to be despised by all the world, and sincerely rejoices in contempt. Such a man fears no dishonor, because he loves no honor.'

St. Albert the Great

I don't get it though. We wouldn't be good stewards of our body if we allowed ourselves to feel morose about ourselves. St. Teresa of Avila never intimated that she was. St. Therese also didn't, however her Little Way does advocate loving if people say bad things about you or don't esteem you. Has the word 'contemptible' changed it's meaning (as has pray [to or thee])? Psychologists, even orthodox Catholic ones try to get people to not see themselves as 'pond scum'.

I think that there are psychologically health and unhealthy ways to see yourself as contemptible.  :D

Just like there's a black kind of sorrow that is despair and depressing, and a kind of sorrow that makes you cry but not despair, rather still hope, beyond hope, because of the goodness of God.

But it's true I don't understand this truly, and am only just saying what little comes to mind.

I've long tried to capture interior ideas of the full range of what are good emotions and a good emotional life is that is productive and what is not, but I have not got it yet by far.

In other words, there is contemptible with hope and there is contemptible without hope. The former is the one we to which we should aspire. Is that what you're meaning?

Hmm, I didn't think of it that way until you said it but that could be it. :) Contemptible with hope can produce other good emotions, in consideration of God.

Contemptible without hope is self destructive.

I definitely have some thoughts on this one:

The temptation is to think yourself a little god.  You can think yourself better, smarter, above, and are indignant when you are not respected for your position.  (think Tiger Woods, celebrities, etc).  There is much to be feared in being honored.  I often pray for priests because of this very temptation.  

I don't think he means despised in the sense of self-depreciation.  I think he is referring to his opening sentence about the fear of honor and what it can do to the mind and soul.  One who is esteemed by others DOES compare him/herself to those above and below status-wise.  Those above he/she is jealous of or aspires to get equal to; those beneath he/she looks down on; those equal he/she sees as competition.  So it is wise to despise self in the sense of being mindful that we all come from dust and are going to dust.  Offsets the temptations.

 
This is the goal.  If one keeps in the forefront that he/she is dust (and therefore in a sense despised of the world), one becomes free of opinion either way and all the temptations above.  Then, if honor is thrust upon such a person he won't have to fear it because it means nothing to him/her.  

Little Napoleons!  :angryred:

Hmm. They are good pastries though.  :biggrin:

Very few celebrities go to Heaven, I feel it looks to be the case! It's just deadly to be surrounded by people telling you what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear, and having all your pleasures at your beck and call!

'. . . God deigned that we have freedom to do good and evil, we are obligated by debt of justice to do good, and we cannot do it without divine grace. Whoever thinks that he can by himself accomplish something besides fault and defect is really lacking any sort of intellect.'

St. Catherine of Bologna

That's blunt. :D

Hmm, hi god Shin!
Reader of hearts!  
Wow, the makings of celebrity status!   :biggrin:


PS. Been there, done that; especially a few yrs ago.  Many priests and lay have done the same.
We are all guilty in big and small ways.    :o  :ActofGod:    ;D    O:)

Just applying these kinds quotes, my dear, I wouldn't say it of my own authority:

'Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie. . . Jesus Christ said . . . "He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican." And he also said, "There shall be one fold and one shepherd," and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock. My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.

St. Regimius of Rheims

'I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many bishops are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.'

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

As the scriptures say few people go to Heaven in general, and it's even harder for the rich, I don't think being a celebrity improves the odds above being a bishop or average person! I am not reading specific hearts, I am speaking generally of those who live in sin just like the scriptures do!  :D


'For many are called, but few chosen.'

Mark 20:16

(I was laughing when I wrote that other post; hope you didn't take it to heart)  :imsorry:

RE: Saints' pronouncements.
Judging from the dates they lived, I am not sure they were aware of mass worldwide starvation and disease that encompasses the vast majority of the earth's population now ("most people go to hell").   I am willing to bet they were referring to the limited civilized population they knew about.  One can't argue about Our Lord's words but I think there are many ways to be rich besides money.  One can be rich in power; rich in status; rich in thoughts or emotions; rich in libido.  All of these riches can lead to hell.  

This however, can seem quite true, especially these days, especially in light of recent bishops' resignations and the pope's speech yesterday.........
I do not think that many bishops are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.'
St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church
But again, I think and hope that many bishops repent before death; so I pray for that anyway.  

Back to St Albert the Great (was he a pope?), the temptations related to honor, prestige, and position are more subtle and powerful than purity issues or anything else.  Temptations that go along with being honored lead to most other sins, including impurity and abuse.   St. Albert was right on...... but if he was a pope, he probably knew these temptations very well indeed!  So did St. John Chrysostom; why he probably said what he said about bishops.

And you know by now Shin, I think of these things with a slightly different twist; so take me with a grain of salt for my warped mind.   ;D

I would imagine that lust would top the list of sins of the flesh. Since that is probably the case, I don't know of anyone (personally) who could be saved. :'(

Makes one want to go to confession every day.

Does "flesh" always mean sex?   ???
Just curious; Saints reference it a lot but I was curious about scripture because Our Lord seemed to be most lenient and compassionate with this sin and yet a bit more harsh about arrogance, especially in dealing with the honorable of the time. 

You know, that's true - then I wonder why so many Saints say otherwise (and hardly even mention arrogance or self-righteousness)? :-\ Same with Our Lady at Fatima.

I usually give people a pound of salt for me!  ;D


Well, I heard the other day listening to a priest's sermon that the sins overwhelming mentioned in Confession have to do with lust (I believe it was this one (http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20100425-What-Is-Permissable-For-Engaged-Couples.html)). And so, he added while there are greater sins than lust that offend God more in their commission, the main cause of people going to Hell is lust. He quoted one saint while saying that while some may go to Hell ultimately because of other sins, they will also at least generally not go to Hell without having committed sins of lust as well.

And that said, only the pure of heart shall see God, one of the general categories mentioned in scripture of those that do not go to Heaven is 'fornicators'.

'Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.'

1 Cor 6:9-10

And it is said that some forms of lust -are- the worst sins possible, that 'cry out to Heaven for vengeance':

'This vice disturbs the intellect, breaks an elevated and generous state of soul, drags great thoughts to petty ones, makes [men] pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything . . . Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than anyone else, because this is the worst sin that there is.'

St. Bernardine of Siena

When I think about lust I think about sensuality in general, the desire of the flesh for anything.. gluttony and lust are linked sins for example, they often go together.

The saints are very good at denying themselves basic comforts that other people find it hard to do without. A comfortable bed, comfortable clothes.. temperatures.. good tasting food..  I feel there's more to this than we understand before we truly engage in such ascetic practices. I wish however I was better enough at them to be able to say more about it.

There's nothing like humbling yourself through your inability to do even some of the smaller mortifications and ascetic practices!

It must be my age but............
You don't do illicit sex of any kind if you are not first thinking somehow you are entitled to it and entitlement is a symptom of arrogance, not lust.
Forgive me for disagreeing with some Saints' assessment of the situation in terms of prioritizing things. 
All I can say is that they must have been young men.  :happyroll:
If not, they must have got around as young men.  :o

I like St Albert's assessment of things better.   ;)


PS.  Do any women Saints have this preoccupation with lust being the end all and be all of sins?  I would really be interested in that.

:happyroll: :happyroll: :happyroll:



I'd be interested in that, too.

'I say the same of humility and of all the virtues; the wiles of the devil are terrible, he will run a thousand times round hell if by so doing he can make us believe that we have a single virtue which we have not. And he is right, for such ideas are very harmful, and such imaginary virtues, when they come from this source, are never unaccompanied by vainglory; just as those which God gives are free both from this and from pride.'

~~~St. Teresa of Jesus

Found this quote on Saintsquotes. Scary right? the trouble the devil takes to make us have one proud thought about ourselves. God deliver us from his wiles.

Only by God's Grace and Mercy do we even stand a chance.

'Our eighth struggle is against the demon of pride, a most sinister demon, fiercer than all that have been discussed up till now. He attacks the perfect above all and seeks to destroy those who have mounted almost to the heights of holiness. Just as a deadly plague destroys not just one member of the body, but the whole of it, so pride corrupts the whole soul, not just part of it. Each of the other passions that trouble the soul attacks and tries to overcome the single virtue which is opposed to it, and so it darkens and troubles the soul only partially. But the passion of pride darkens the soul completely and leads to its utter downfall.

In order to understand more fully what is meant by this, we should look at the problem in the following way. Gluttony tries to destroy self-control; unchastity, moderation; avarice, voluntary poverty; anger, gentleness; and the other forms of vice, their corresponding virtues. But when the vice of pride has become master of our wretched soul, it acts like some harsh tyrant who has gained control of a great city, and destroys it completely, razing it to its foundations. The angel who fell from heaven because of his pride bears witness to this. He had been created by God and adorned with every virtue and all wisdom, but he did not want to ascribe this to the grace of the Lord. He ascribed it to his own nature and as a result regarded himself as equal to God. The prophet rebukes this claim when he says: 'You have said in your heart: "I will sit on a high mountain; I will place my throne upon the clouds and I will be like the Most High." Yet you are a man, and not God' (cf. Isa. 14:13-14). And again, another prophet says, 'Why do you boast of your wickedness, O mighty man?' and he continues in this same vein (Ps. 52:1). Since we are aware of this we should feel fear and guard our hearts with extreme care from the deadly spirit of pride. When we have attained some degree of holiness we should always repeat to ourselves the words of the Apostle: "Yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me' (1 Cor. 15:10), as well as what was said by the Lord: 'Without Me you can do nothing' (John 15:5). We should also bear in mind what the prophet said: 'Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it' (Ps. 127:1), and finally: 'It does not depend on-man's will or effort, but on God's mercy (Rom. 9:16).'

St. John Cassian

Yes Patricia….. I fear pride more than anything, as it is the very sin of the Devil and his demons. It turns the good accomplished in us to something detestable and makes the very grace that God bestows on us work to our ruin. It can bring every good thought or intention under its control. It can even prevent us from confessing our sins.
No wonder Saint Paul told us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
In spite of the countless virtues of Our Blessed Lady, it was as she tells us in the Magnificat, Her humility which God regarded.
Dear Mother Mary, protect us all from this diabolical vice that aligns us with Satan makes us as enemies of God.
Even we who are sinful can overlook the faults in others that arise from human weakness, seeing our own frailty reflected in them. But pride is detestable even to the most evil among us when we see it in another.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make our hearts like unto Thine.

And who among human beings can truthfully say that they have not ever lusted in their heart? Same with arrogance. Everyone has been arrogant in their heart or covetous (I imagine that's true even for some of the Saints). Jesus says the sins of the heart are just as bad. :-[

Yes, how many people are living in sin because of this temptation? They are no longer able to repent because they craft their lives around a false marriage, or a shared home and finances, or a simple way of life of indulgence. Like a drug, it addicts.

Isn't it this temptation that is the cause of abortion and the destruction of the family? The reason why divorce, contraception, abortion, unnatural relations, all are the great sins of this time and the forefront of the vangard of Satan?

Without lust, how different people would be, and how different their sins. And because of it, people say that God is willing to tolerate it, but it is a mortal sin, even in small doses. If children are not raised to reject it -- how much harder it becomes, after it is tasted, and how casually what is mortal sin is approached.

Literature, television, music, clothing, all are full of celebrations of it rather than celebrations of its denial.

May God have mercy on us poor sinners. May God deliver all sinners captured in this net, and cut them free. St. Peter ora pro nobis. Pray for us, apostolic fishermen, that the worst of sinners, and all the world, may be cut free.

Martin said this on another thread:

To think ourselves imperfect, and others perfect---- that is happiness. That creatures recognize we are without virtue takes nothing from us, makes us no poorer; it is they who by this lose interior joy; for there is nothing sweeter than to think well of our neighbor.

-- Saint Therese of Lisieux

She is the epitome of humility to me.

The most powerful weapon to conquer the devil is humility. For, as he does not know at all how to employ it, neither does he know how to defend himself from it.

-- Saint Vincent de Paul

Humility is the safeguard of chastity. In the matter of purity, there is no greater danger than not fearing danger. When a person puts himself in an occasion of sin, saying, " I shall not fall", it is almost an infallible sign that he will fall, and with great injury to his soul. We must specifically and regularly pray for God's assistance and not rely on our own strength.

-- Saint Phillip Neri   :angelblue:

Everything, even the smallest of things! Without Him, we can do nothing!