Saints' Discussion Forums

'The true peace of God, penetrating the depth of the soul, brings with it every help and grace necessary to secure its salvation and reach eternal life.'

St. Ignatius of Loyola

'Fix your minds on the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Inflamed with love for us, he came down from heaven to redeem us. For our sake he endured every torment of body and soul and shrank from no bodily pain. He himself gave us an example of perfect patience and love. We, then, are to be patient in adversity. Take pains to refrain from sharp words. Pardon one another so that later on you will not remember the injury. The recollection of an injury is itself wrong. It adds to our anger, nurtures our sins and hates what is good. It is a rusty arrow and poison for the soul. It puts all virtue to flight. Be peace-loving. Peace is a precious treasure to be sought with great zeal. You are well aware that our sins arouse God's anger. You must change your life, therefore, so that God in his mercy will pardon you. What we conceal from men is known to God. Be converted, then, with a sincere heart. Live your life that you may receive the blessing of the Lord. Then the peace of God our Father will be with you always.'

St. Francis of Paola

'Let us bear one anothers' burdens, for one is weak and another strong, making use of food and drink and the other necessities with moderation, so that there is no provoking to jealousy among evil people, but zeal in goodness. In everything be good to one another, compassionate, reasonable, obedient, full of mercy and good fruits, and the peace of God which passes all understanding will keep your hearts and thoughts. And now, may you be found worthy without condemnation to reach the supreme day of the Resurrection, but in the age to come at the resurrection of the dead to gain the kingdom of heaven in Christ Jesus our Lord, to whom be the glory and the might, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.'

St. Theodore the Studite

This never occurred to me. It should have but it didn't.

I think purification of memory can be very key to spiritual health.. where we forget what we should forget.. as well as remember what we should remember.

I know that the devil tries to make us remember only unpleasant things, and because these memories are powerful they can stick with us for a long time. Until the emotion associated with the memory is healed, it is constantly reinforced by being brought to mind in conjunction with the unpleasant emotion.

So when we free ourselves from the unpleasant emotion associated with the memory, then we are able to forget. And if we do so before the memory begins, there is no lasting memory of it -- or at least, none in such a way that it stays with us in any harmful way.

I know from my own experience how easily unpleasant memories can stick and be brought to mind this way. I think part of us thinks we should remember these things this way, and so it is never resolved.

Detachment! I wish I knew all the ramifications.

When a wrong emotion is linked to a memory, even though we make an act of will to forgive, our emotions fight against this. So part of the spiritual journey is I think to the extent we can (the devils are involved after all), properly ordering our emotional lives.

I do not entirely understand all I have just written, nor enact it.   :P  ::)

I am having challenges with purification of memories , of very sad memories and also of unpleasant ones.  Hopefully it should lessen as time passes. A priest I spoke to told me it will take time and prayer and forgiveness.  One way to help forgive a wrongful act, he told me was to include the person who hurt you in your prayers . To pray for your enemy by name.

So how, in your opinion, does one forget (forgiveness and prayer for the other person via the will already  having been done) an unconscious or conscience memory before the memory begins? What you're said (even if not practicing it yet?) is very interesting and are new thoughts. The devil using these things perfectly makes sense as he tries to use any weakness we have to win our souls. The health ramifications are obvious too (spiritual, emotional and physical).

Quote from Brigid..."So how, in your opinion, does one forget (forgiveness and prayer for the other person via the will already  having been done) an unconscious or conscience memory before the memory begins? What you're said (even if not practicing it yet?) is very interesting and are new thoughts. The devil using these things perfectly makes sense as he tries to use any weakness we have to win our souls. The health ramifications are obvious too (spiritual, emotional and physical)."


Padre Pio used to say that when we’re wronged unjustly accept it gladly in reparation for the times we justly deserved it but were let of the hook (paraphrasing here).
And think how much power it brings to praying the Our Father when we’re asking God to forgive us our trespasses when our own hearts are full of forgiveness for those who hurt us. See! .. We can’t loose. The Devil ends up confounded by the very thing he used to enslave us.

This is absolutely masterful!   And there is neuro-biology to support this also.   :)
The memories stick because neuro-pathways are created that connect memory to emotional response.  The more the memory is "rehearsed," the stronger those pathways become.   Practicing diverting ones attention to a different meaning associated with the memory changes the feelings and creates and strengthens that new pathway.  The more the new way is rehearsed, the stronger that becomes.  The other is always there but there is now a second association with it.  So as Shin then said,
The thing is, it is very hard work.  It just doesn't happen with time.  Any alcoholic will tell you that because they have to change the meaning of the bottle in such a way as to decrease the desire to drink from it. 


St. Jane Francis de Chantal  speaks on the subject but I have to cook dinner now.
Later.......   

Bailey, can you give me an example of how to do that. For example , if a painful memory begins to come back of an incident of someone who hurt you in some way, how do we  tackle it with a second association?

First, to clarify; creating a new meaning to a painful old memory does not make the experience that created the old memory good or positive, nor does it permanently eliminate the bad feelings totally....... as least right away.  I do believe God is with us as we struggle but I also believe our prayer for healing (or anything) must be followed by our effort to heal ourselves (ie. cooperate).  That being said,

(OK, I have just sat here for 15 minutes trying to find an example not too personal because this is a public forum.  I need to go to work.  I will try to think of one and come back later).   ???   Don't worry, I'll find one.   There are plenty. I am sure.   ;D

I eagerly await your exposition!  :D

What I wrote above about reinforcement, I've read Fr. Ripperger say, and I think I got long ago perhaps from my father (the psychologist). It is something at least, that one must come across through introspection and examining how one's mind works with memories.

Introspection is something I have done and do incessantly to extreme. Introspection about introspection, reduction ad infinitum.

I've often noticed that negative memories can seem to have more power than positive to stick with a person.. at least if one is habitually more negative than positive.. then whatever state of mind a person is in.. what goes along comes along. And even good memories become cast in your current state of mind.

It's difficult to convince yourself to feel differently about things often enough. Whatever you feel 'feels' right or correct.

But no!

From what I have read and heard, I believe Fr. R. is quite skilled at the methods necessary to heal memories and adjust disordered emotions through virtue, which is part of why he is so successful at helping people.

you need to get out more Shin......  :rotfl:

:happyroll:

Simple example:
SITUATION:  I met a woman whose husband was out of state because of a job lay-off so I decided it would be a good thing to introduce her to a few women; get her out of the house.  So I invited my neighbor, a "friend" from Bible study, and this woman to my house for wine, pastries, and cheese and fruit.  The woman whose husband is out of state got slobbering drunk, hung all over me, and basically humiliated herself.  (Incidentally, I quit drinking two years ago so my drinking was about three communion sips so everyone would feel comfortable).  My neighbor left rolling her eyes.  Later, my "friend" from Bible study invited us both over and then this woman invited us over there.  Both times, they drank, I had a sip or two.   No more slobbering drunk however and I had a good time; chalked the first night up to a bad night.  

Then, no invites.  I thought nothing of it because I figured everyone was busy.  But later, I found out that these two had gotten together on numerous occasions without me.......... mind you, I brought them together in the first place!   I was definitely hurt about that since I did like them both and enjoyed their company.  So I invited them to meet me at a restaurant.  We chatted.  The one woman had wine (of course).  Then the other one says, "We'll have to do something at my house. Really get together."  And guess what?  I haven't heard from them again.

INSIDE MY HEAD:  Even now when I relate this story, I get a little disappointment in my throat since this is fairly recent.   I have had a hard time making friends here even though I have been here 5 yrs now.  People here seem to have established their long term relationships and have family here.  My close friends still remain in WA where I lived 15 yrs.  So these kinds of things bother me.  "Why can't I make friends here?  Is there something wrong with me?  Barring that, why is everyone so unfriendly, so busy?  Etc"

When this memory comes up (even now as I relate it and feel a bit of cringe with it) my knee jerk response is to think the above and then of course, long for WA.  Then, I divert my attention in this way:  "First of all these are two women, not everyone.  Second, the woman has a drinking problem and she feels threatened that I don't drink (and recall subsequent conversations to give evidence for that).  My "friend" from Bible study just divorced her husband so the two of them don't have husbands around and I do.  That "friend" seemed to think my husband should take on more of the share of my work, one reason she divorced her husband of 20 yrs.  So I call to mind some of her many words that reflected her attitudes on those points.

SUMMARY:  The memory evokes knee-jerk discomfort.  I catch myself chewing over painful thoughts that seem to dig me deeper into painful feelings.  I conscientiously divert my attention to a different perspective when thinking of the same topic.  Eventually, the new perspective pairs with the old.  I can't think of one without the other.  Sooner or later, the memory will evoke the second over the first.  Neurologically speaking, new learning creates new pathways.  It just takes practice.


Next post here I will copy St Jane Francis de Chantal's words......... she has a slightly different way to do the same thing.........  
Hope this helps. ?

St. Jane Francis de Chantal:  the [] are my comments

"Once more, in God's name I tell you this.  You look into yourself far too much [focus on my loss, my pain, my betrayal].  Do not any longer find cause for trouble in your trouble [the trouble is there but to focus on the trouble makes the feelings worse].  Never speak of it, neither to God nor to yourself, nor ever so much as look at it for long enough to be able to find words to describe it [or you will feel what you describe], nor express it to anybody whatever; and never make it the subject of any examen [ie. ruminate on it like a cow chews the cud over and over].  Hide your grief from your very self, and hold your eyes on God as if you did not feel it and, if you can speak to Him at all, let it be about Himself and not about your difficulties [a masterful way to say look outside yourself so you can learn to forget all about yourself].  Keep your eyes raised to heaven, and be content to repeat over and over with a smile filled with confidence: O eternity!  O eternity!"

She is not saying deny the hurt but to recognize it and refocus outside the self............ detachment.   When we are hurt by another person, we are focused on our hurt.  We really could care less about the other person since our focus is on ourselves and what their behavior means in terms of its affect on us.  In essence, they did not behave as we think they should have and so we are "hurt."  But really, if we were holier, it wouldn't matter to us.  Take that to its logical conclusion by the way and you could say on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" ....... the focus on them, not me.

OK, enough rambling.  I hate long posts.  I didn't know how to make more succinct.  Sorry.   :(

PS.  Jane Francis de Chantal's husband was killed in a hunting accident two weeks after her youngest was born.  I believe she gave birth to 6 and lost 2 as children.  She was majorly depressed for several months before she pulled it together with the aid of St. Francis de Sales.

Thanks for sharing Bailey. Appreciate it. To divert attention to a different perspective.That will take practice, I know . I will try this approach combined with St. Jane Francis de Chantal's advice. Usually my approach is to avoid the person who hurt me, as the fear is  that the person would hurt me again. Which is sometimes good , if the person is not very good company in any case. But then painful memories stay. I have had similar experiences , as your experience above. Painful memories being played over and over again is like a cow chewing cud. Good description :D  But as St. Jane Chantal says if you dont think about it , don't worry about it, keep your eyes on God and let eternity be your guide , it will be so much easier.

The problem comes when a person wants to be in your life and hurts you all the time, like the elderly person whom I mentioned in another thread. There is no way I can avoid him . All I can think of is the Lord sends them to you as an exercise in practicing patience and forgiveness.

If the hurt is emotional and not physical, try to figure out where that person is coming from: is he/she hurt, lonely, raised to be that way, doesn't know better, etc.  The focus on that person rather than what it does to you.

Sometimes this is difficult but it does ease it a little better than gritting teeth and offering it up.  

Oh yes, one is also not required to take abuse and is free to avoid if that's what it takes!

I like that quotation a good deal.

I do know that being stuck with troublesome people can be a great benefit handled properly.

'A lady wishing to have a widow live with her to take care of, asked St. Athanasius to find her one among his poor. Afterwards meeting the Bishop, she reproached him that he had treated her ill, because this person was too good, and gave her nothing to do by which she could gain heaven; and she begged him to give her another. The saint chose the worst he could find; of a cross, grumbling temper, never satisfied with what was done for her. This is the way we must act, for there is no great merit in doing good to one who values it, who thanks us and is grateful.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

In other words, and I have heard this particular example used by more than one saint -- to gain merit, and practice virtue, these people are indispensable. Without them, certainly, we are at peace -- but why? Because of interior grace and rulership over our selves? No, because of exterior circumstances, that if changed and we are put to the test in, we fail because of no true ability to keep our peace.

The saints are jealous of Heavenly treasure, they desire as much as they can gain. And so, while they bear with these cross people they see in their minds the piles of gold coins flowing forth in the clouds, so to speak. Only the gold is the grace of virtue practiced and giving glory to God.

St. Jean Marie Vianney himself is an example of this, in his relationship with his housekeeper, whom testified that he never gave her a human reason for helping him -- in other words, he did not reward her in this life. For weak children, this would have caused these people to despise him or dislike him, but for her, she gained treasure in Heaven by serving a saint who did not reward her on earth.

But we are very far from these things, because we are far from Christianity in so many ways. We do not pursue crosses and take joy in them and trust in the rewards for a variety of reasons.

There's a sermon on this list entitled 'The Holy Family (http://www.sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html)' that talks about how to gain interior peace as part of the discussion.

It focuses on the idea of 'peace as the tranquility of order'.

Very key I think!  :D

A further quote from St. Augustine:

'The peace of the celestial city is the perfectly ordered and harmonious enjoyment of God, and of one another in God. The peace of all things is the tranquillity of order.

Order is the distribution which allots things equal and unequal, each to its own place.

And hence, though the miserable, in so far as they are such, do certainly not enjoy peace, but are severed from that tranquillity of order in which there is no disturbance, nevertheless, inasmuch as they are deservedly and justly miserable, they are by their very misery connected with order.

They are not, indeed, conjoined with the blessed, but they are disjoined from them by the law of order. And though they are disquieted, their circumstances are notwithstanding adjusted to them, and consequently they have some tranquillity of order, and therefore some peace. But they are wretched because, although not wholly miserable, they are not in that place where any mixture of misery is impossible.

They would, however, be more wretched if they had not that peace which arises from being in harmony with the natural order of things. When they suffer, their peace is in so far disturbed; but their peace continues in so far as they do not suffer, and in so far as their nature continues to exist. As, then, there may be life without pain, while there cannot be pain without some kind of life, so there may be peace without war, but there cannot be war without some kind of peace, because war supposes the existence of some natures to wage it, and these natures cannot exist without peace of one kind or other.'

St. Augustine

This is a deep quote which I connect to something I heard of once, though since I do not know exactly where I can only relate the story from faulty memory -- where a saint perhaps attempted to take a soul in the fires of Hell to Heaven and God allowed it to be brought up there -- the saint thought that if she took a soul in Hell to Heaven it would be better off there.

But the soul upon being brought up into the Heavens, when it was there made great complaint, and desired to return to Hell. True it did not bear its tortures -- but precisely because of this, and more, it was all the worse -- justice was not being done. It expressed itself that at least with it being in Hell the universe made sense, it could not bear within itself the torment of the disorder of its dislocation from its proper place -- a senseless universe.

If I ever find the actual story I will look into the actual details, however what is striking is this illustrates all the more of how important that everything be ordered for peace. With proper order -- peace, without, not. All temporary peace is thus an appearance of order that is not actual. I.e. we receive certain sensory comforts, or mental comforts, but the fundamentals are being overlooked.

How dangerous a false peace is!

Which reminds me of the souls in purgatory and how if ever a soul witnesses purgatory before its life is over, it performs tremendous acts of penance for the rest of its life. Penance repairs disorder. But moreso.. the souls who witness the next life have such inexpressible pain at not being united to God.

We, 'see through a glass darkly', but if we 'saw clearly' we would too feel this inexpressible pain at the disorder of our current existence of being separated from God. It would be greater than any pain in this life, by magnitudes beyond expression -- in fact it is an infinite kind of pain, the loss of God, separation from Him.

This would be the true state of our souls if we understood ourselves now, if we 'saw clearly'. We do not yet feel it, but we can move ourselves to act upon this knowledge.

So -- rationality, converting because of what we 'know' is so key towards change because our hearts can be deceived by a 'false peace' in the emotional life, but so too, conversion of heart changes this false peace into a more proper desire, a properly ordered emotion for God that enables us to fulfill His will and more and more greatly order our lives.

I totally missed this the first time!  Thank you Shin for posting this and you Brigid for highlighting it!  I'm going to use this in another place re: depressive tendencies!!
 :thumbsup:

Bailey, one has to be very generous and large hearted to do that. To try to empathize even when it is difficult.  It is a grace one should pray for.

Yes, with God's help this grace is possible!  :D St. Joseph of Copertino had troubles with his temper, but with God grace delivers!

Unlike many other places, bringing back old threads if there is something new to contribute is a good thing here. :) We encourage it! Months, years later we may find God gives us a new insight, draw new benefit, have a new question.. threads may become like little booklets full of little treasures because of the different graces and inspirations each person finds woven together..

On other places oriented on conflict often threads become cyclic debates where nothing new is said or learned.. but here the goal is to find new goods.. and support the goods found..   :D

Deo gratias et Mariae semper Virgini!

Yes sometimes forgetfulness is a blessing! (sometimes it's a curse!) And sometimes we have to change the emotions associated with the memories. . both methods are so helpful!

How often I've heard people say that they can't believe in a God who would consign people to hell.
The above quote answers that question well.
Other saints have said that those who go to hell choose to go there.

Regarding hurtful memories and problems with forgiving (earlier in this thread) I believe that both come from a non-appreciation of ones own sinfulness.
In order not to forgive or hold grudges against someone I must detach myself from my own culpability regarding the torture and death of our dear Lord.
No matter how much anyone has hurt me they can't have hurt me more than I myself have hurt and abused my Lord.

This is an indisputable truth that grants no licence whatsoever to hold grudges or refuse forgiveness to anyone. When tempted to do so, 5 minutes of meditating on the passion of Christ should bring my own petty grievances into perspective.. If I find myself so hard hearted that even this fails to bring me to my senses then picturing Jesus lying dead in the arms of His adorable mother and the unspeakable sorrow on her face all because of me and my sins, this usually softens the heart enough to cease the complaining and forgive the offence.
Like the thief on the cross, I'm only getting what's due to me when I receive offence, but our dear Lord has done nothing wrong and neither has His blessed mother. I ask myself "Do either bear me any ill will?"
Not a single ounce.
This is worth more than many years of expensive counselling.

Comparing what we have to what we deserve shows everything as mercy.
I'm ashamed to admit this but at times when I'm really hard hearted and stubborn it can take as much as 15 mins of meditating on the passion and our blessed mother's sorrow before finally coming to my senses and forgiving.
One would think that a single glance at the cross or our Lords own words, "Forgive and you too shall be forgiven." would suffice, but sadly for many of us Irish revenge is almost considered a virtue.. Sigh.. But it is the truth.


Yes.. this is a good thing to do.  Often I find in older threads some profound quotes that didn't quite register with me the first time round but on reading them again I can pick up much of what I missed, especially with the new comments attached. Hopefully this could be a sign of growth in the right direction.  :D

This is totally true Martin! I've fallen so far in my life, time and time again, and realized that without God's grace it could've been even farther.

When one realizes one is the lowest of the low, and there but for the grace of God you would be committing all the worst sins that now perhaps you hate and find unthinkable.. then you realize..

Everyone is forgivable.. the worst of the worst.. you can forgive everyone.. Because no one does anything good by his own power.. it is all of God.. without whom we can do nothing good.

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us..

What greater motivation?

Yes Shin... Just raeding St Joseph of Cupertino again and he seems to confirm this.

" all the troubles of this world are nothing but the "play" battles children have with popguns."

This from a man who's life was filled with troubles but saw them for what they really where.

And St Paul says, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8: 18)

I am going to have to reread my biography of him. Thank you Fr. Pastrovicchi, O.M.C.!  :D

Play battles with popguns really stays in my mind. I keep thinking about it!  :D