Saints' Discussion Forums

'Every good work which we perform through our own natural powers causes us to refrain from the corresponding sin; but without grace it cannot contribute to our sanctification.'

St. Mark the Ascetic

The above quote makes me wonder about much of the social justice teachings we hear theses days. Of themselves and divorced from Gods grace these “good acts” can only merit a natural reward: i.e. (human praise or material benefit).
It sometimes seems like we’re being told that our salvation is a foregone conclusion and all that remains for us to do is sort out the worlds problems. (talk about putting the cart before the horse). Much like Sola Fide.

Looking for more info on the subject I found this.

Conditions of merit

In Catholic teaching, for all true merit, there are seven conditions, of which four regard the meritorious work, two the agent who merits, and one God who rewards.
In order to be meritorious a work must be morally good, morally free, done with the assistance of actual grace and inspired by a supernatural motive.

As to the second requisite, i. e., moral liberty, it is clear from ethics that actions, due to external force or internal compulsion, can deserve neither reward nor punishment. It is an axiom of criminal jurisprudence that no one shall be punished for a misdeed done without free will; similarly, a good work can only then be meritorious and deserving of reward when it proceeds from a free determination of the will. This is the teaching of Christ (Matt., xix, 21): "If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give it to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The necessity of the third condition, i. e., of the influence of actual grace, is clear from the fact that every act meriting heaven must evidently be supernatural just as heaven itself is supernatural, and that consequently it cannot be performed without the help of prevenient and assisting grace, which is necessary even for the just. The strictly supernatural destiny of the Beatific Vision, for which the Christian must strive, necessitates ways and means which lie altogether beyond what is purely natural.

In Christian theology, man possesses nothing of his own; all that he has and all that he does is a gift of God, and, since God is infinitely self-sufficient, there is no advantage or benefit which man can by his services confer upon Him. Hence on the part of God there can only be question of a gratuitous promise of reward for certain good works. For such works He owes the promised reward, not in justice or equity, but solely because He has freely bound himself, i.e., because of His own attributes of veracity and fidelity. It is on this ground alone that we can speak of Divine justice at all, and apply the principle: Do ut des (I give that you may give as in pertaining to a contract)
(cf. St. Augustine, Serm. clviii, c. ii, in P. L., XXXVIII, 863).

Catholic teachings on social justice are found in the Catechism (1928 - 1948).  It begins with the premise of respect for life; the basis of the pro-life movement, which is a social justice activity.

According to Teresa of Calcutta, this here is social work, not a ministry.  Right on target.


And this is the basis for all social justice.  It has to do with what we will be judged by at death. 
Matthew 25: 31-46

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

And here is the great comfort for all those who work for social justice:
Luke 7:47   
Wherefore I say to thee: Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much. But to whom less is forgiven, he loveth less.


Martinfegan and Shin, 
I have never meet a Catholic active in social justice of any kind: pro-life, jail ministry, ministry to the dying, to the unwed mothers, to the poor...... that do not have a regular prayer life.  It may not be adoration or rosary or chaplets but they do have a prayer life. 
Blessings,
Bailey2     

100% in agreement Baily2.
This surely would be working with a supernatural motive


Me neither. I have met some who didn't pray but ended up praying. Those who didn't soon gave up the fight.


Those who don't use these are neglecting the greatest weapons of all. One should use the whole arsenal when the enemy is using his.

Oh, I'm not so sure about that for all people (those particular forms of prayer); though I suspect that is true for you and many.  I would say however that the sacraments, especially confession and holy mass/eucharist are indispensable.   :)

I don't think that Martin meant that those particular ways of prayer were necessary, absolutely. I think he was saying that the more different kinds of spiritual weapons we use the easier it will be for us. ;)

OK,  all said with lightness of heart   :D

Brigid, like your new avatar.  Hmmm, when I get a chance, I'm getting bored with mine too.

but I have always liked Martinfegan's.  Everytime I think of him, I think he has the face of Padre Pio!!!

I'm glad you like it. I have a wall plaque of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal looking down at me in bed. She seems so motherly - like Our Lady of Guadelupe.
I always think of Martin as looking like Padre Pio, too. ;D

Same here. Strange.

Not too strange......... that's all we see; not his real face.  What can you do, right?  ;)

I thought I saw that smile leave Padre Pio’s face when you all thought I might look like him.   :-[
I noticed the latest member here is a nephew of mine. He’ll be able to confirm that I don’t even have a beard. He’s just returned to the States after a few weeks home in Ireland and glad he’s got back safe n sound.
These changing avatars take a bita gettin  used to as I too pictured you all as looking like your saint. (except Baily2 who I pictured as looking like my sons R.E teacher, A real saintly woman too I might add).   :angelblue:

 :biggrin: I knew you'd have a good comeback.

**** darn......... I thought you would picture me looking like the Blessed Virgin of Guadalupe!   ;)




does this mean I have to behave?   :o

I would do Baily2 but She's so iconic in that image and I would picture you more post vat2ish  :)


Of course not...Sure we wouldn't have you any other way.... He's got a good helping of the Irish wit has our Kieran and even more orthodox than me haha   :happyroll:

Ah, long hair, flowered clothes, short-shorts, and mid-drift?  (at 50)..........  :rotfl:



Ohmygosh, how is this possible?   :o

Back to the original for a minute:  I thought grace was abundant and shines on both the good and the bad?  Isn't it possible that God uses the charity done as a means to Him?  You know, those who seek with a sincere heart?  (am I in trouble yet?   ;)).   Remember, I am one who does not think Saint's statements are always fully correct.   :o

Not in trouble quite yet. :D

I personally think that He not only uses charity as a means to Him, but that He wants us to perform charity so that we are being His 'Hands'. Although He can use miraculous means, He wants us to show  our attachment to Jesus.
Yes, Scripture does say that the sun does shine on both the good and the bad, however Scripture also says that we need baptism in order to receive the Holy Spirit. It additionally says that we must follow all His Commandments in which more than loving others as we would have them love us is part.

Back to that other thread!!!!  Make haste!   :boxing: :rotfl:

Huh? ??? Which thread?

You don’t escape that easily Baily2.   :happyroll:

I think what we’re getting at here is motive or rather the belief that inspires the action.
For instance some one counselling a girl to have an abortion may well think she has the welfare of the girl at heart and even believe she is doing a good act. She is acting according to her belief. The same person could then go and feed the hungry without having to alter the belief that inspired the first action.
What an atheist believes to be good may sometimes overlap with what a saint considers good but what inspires one is the archenemy of what inspires the other.
That’s why purely natural motives can’t claim any supernatural reward. Those actions inspired by grace merit a reward. Likewise those actions inspired by another spirit other than God’s (even if the action looks good) at best don’t merit any reward and at worst condemnation.    :kanpai:   :)

Brigid, I meant the thread about John Paul II.   :D


Well Martinfegan, I have never known anyone with pure motives!   ;D   Inspired by grace and inspired by nature cannot be separated.   It's a mixed bag whatever you do.

So then we get back to the "seeking God with a sincere heart;"  thing......not  "I'm set in my beliefs and therefore what I do is right."  Saints and unbelievers do overlap in deeds.  But even the gravest of mistakes is forgivable to those who seek the truth with a sincere heart according to the catechism.  Conversely, not everyone who does it all "right" by the law enters heaven either according to Jesus.  Oh boy, who is who?  So, I guess we all just better get on our knees and hope for the best, no?   ;D

"
Certainly, but [see below]


How can we be sure of His forgiveness (due to our sincere heart) unless one has access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? How can we know that we are a child of God unless we are baptized, besides Jesus told us to be baptized and said that "he who hears you, hears me". So a non-Christian (non-follower of Christ) isn't hearing Him. He is possibly following what is written on his heart, but not receiving His sanctifying grace.

I'm just quoting the catechism, about the sincere heart thing............  O:)       

I think we all came to some kind of impasse on that other thread.   Where it was for me was that the journey to truth is a process and a person can be anywhere along that path..... if they want to be on that path (ie. they are seeking with a sincere heart).  An atheist is not on that path because they have made a decision already (ie. no God) and their good deeds flow usually from some sort of philosophy.  I believe pragmatism is the order of the day now. 

As for the forgiveness due to sincere heart without the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  I don't know.  I always go by "for man it is not possible but for God all things are possible" and then I just leave it alone and trust He can figure it all out, assessing motive that is.   :shrug:

And perhaps technically incorrect, I think sanctifying grace is abundant everywhere and is constantly being showered on everyone.  It's just some people have good solid raincoats instead of ones with holes in them.   :)

 :biggrin: I hope I have a holely (holy) raincoat!

Too funny Brigid; I didn't even think of that!
But I think the holes in your raincoat are so big that the entire blasted raincoat will eventually fall off and you will be drenched!   :D