Saints' Discussion Forums

In the Council of Florence it was said that no Jews can be saved (along with a list of other groups); yet in the Catechism we learn that a Jew who is invincibly ignorant can be saved.  I'm glad the Church sees exceptions.

I'm glad, too (although I don't think they're really exceptions).



Really good to see you again! It's been awhile and we've missed your lovely and prayerful additions to our conversations (even though we don't always mention it  :-[ ).

Well, it's important to note that one way or another the person does become in spirit Catholic before death, by the grace of God, however ignorant. The minimal requirements of what it takes in those last moments to receive sanctifying grace I'm a little vague on.

Thanks, Brigid!  I've still been praying daily for all you good people on this Saints' Discussion Forums.  I'm glad to be back.  Your greeting brought me real joy!

Yes, like they say "Everyone in heaven is a Catholic."

Yes exactly!  ;D  :cherubim: :cheers:

Thank you for all your prayers.  ;)

Yup, everyone in heaven must be Catholic! And I think the vagueness we feel about the sanctifying grace needed at the last moment probably is due to there being no way for anyone to know what He decides is true Justice and Mercy for any one person. Shin, have any saints said anything about this (esp. revelations about this)?

Well, yes, there is some stuff on this, but I don't have enough material gathered to give a clear picture, which is why I hesitate to post on this subject.

We must remember that salvation is precious so ignorance is quite dangerous, and in and of itself. That said, God doesn't prevent the mentally retarded, infants, the very young, etc. from achieving salvation and these have little to no head knowledge about the Faith -- what extent is their interior knowledge? What level of culpability and separation is caused by any errors in each person? I do not know.

I do at least intend to post in a bit some stories of the particular judgement which I just recently read and added enough to my notes to have a decent amount of material, it's quite moving I think it'll be a great thread.  :D

I was just reading in the Bible today that God shows his mercy to whomever he pleases.  One person can go to hell for one unrepented mortal sin commited just before dying, while another can be saved after living a long life of mortal sins with repentance just before dying.  If God gives someone the grace of conversion on their deathbed or at the twilight state between life and death and that person is able to cooperate with this grace of conversion that person is blessed, indeed.  

Hence, the importance brought home of preparing for each day as if it were your last - like the virgins with the lamps.

Yes, exactly.  One saint said that we will die as we have lived.  If we keep making good choices for God at every moment in our lives we will be less likely to make a bad choice against God when we are on our death bed just before dying.  A life of good habits (virtues) or bad habits (vices) will either help or hurt us when we are on our deathbeds.

Yes. :) Since it is perfectly fair and just for a person in mortal sin to go to Hell, if God were to choose to save one, by granting that person effective grace to repentance, and let the other be damned, by only giving sufficient grace that is not availed of, no one can argue the justice of it -- the judgement is His.

Amen!

I think that probably Martin and other people on the forum have some good quotes at least to make a beginning on finding out what must be about a person before one can be saved, and perhaps the whole 'body and soul' of the Church theological idea.  :D

Since it's not an issue I understand all the ramifications of I like to sit quietly and read what others have to say about it.

Many saints have said that most souls go to hell and so this I believe is highly probable, if not the case.  Most souls go to hell because though God gives us all sufficient graces to be saved, many, through their own fault, choose not to cooperate with these graces (and/or can not cooperate with these graces out of weakness).  People can be lazy, pridefully complacent and careless when it comes to their faith and seeking truth.  This would preclude some from coming to know Christ and His Church.  The Pharisees who had God right in their company pridefully resisted Him, refusing to accept Him; but they knew the Scriptures inside and out and lived among Him.  They were hard, stubborn, arrogant and blind - not invincibly ignorant...after all, they had the Scriptures and the Lord Himself right in front of them loving them and loving His Father and the Law; performing all kind of wonders; and telling them openly that He was the Son of God.  Clearly the Jews were expecting a different kind of Messiah and clearly Jesus lived the Law better and sometimes differently than they did - this was a great stumbling block for many of the Pharisees, but unfortunately they were arrogant and prideful and this was their own doing and downfall.

Yes, the Jews are still expecting a different kind of Messiah largely.. and so many of them criticize Christ as not fulfilling their prophecies because they interpret these prophecies in a temporal instead of spiritual fashion. . there're some interesting parallels in the scriptures -- Barrabas, a revolutionary, is released instead of Christ. And so the offshoot of the Jews that rejected Christianity expected a temporal Messiah, rulership and predominance for the Jewish people on this earth. The Bar Kohkba revolt.. and the eventual Antichrist who will be of Jewish descent and put himself forth as the true messiah and Christ as a false one in the last days. But also, when the gentile times have ended and they gentile nations have rejected Christ (remember in scriptures the Jews were preached to first, then the gentiles) then it will be time for the Jews (how many I am not yet sure) to enter the Church.

It's an interesting subject which I am only beginning to explore.

Yes, God is perfectly fair.  Whether He chooses to give one person mercy and none to the other is His prerogative and call and is perfectly fair...he does give all of us sufficient grace to be saved, after all.  In the Bible today I read that God loved Jacob and hated Essau.  He chose Jacob over Essau and the passage went on to explain that God shows His mercy on whomever he chooses.

If you haven't already, you should read The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, by Fr. Charles Arminjon.  St. Therese of Lisieux said, "Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life."  What an excellent book!  It gets into the things you are discussing.

Oh Therese, I was -this- close to ordering it a few weeks back when I was buying books. I keep hoping for a cheap used edition to pop up.

I hope you can get one at a good price!  It's now one of my favorites!  You'll love it!