Saints' Discussion Forums

This is a serious problem since the Council, of course, we are not speaking only of the number of souls not properly prepared for Communion receiving in grave sin that have exploded in numbers.

But the priesthood itself has lost reverence for the Eucharist in so many cases. This of course, comes with the loss of reverence in the Mass.

And we have seen tabernacles put aside and chairs for these priests taking their place.

I don't like to discuss the horrors going on these times because they lead towards such grief that it is too much to bear.

But I want to address some current issues that simply have to be addressed.

In the Austrian news there was a report of 80 hosts stolen from the Diocese of Graz-Seckau. The commentary from the Diocese included this quote from the Episcopal Vicar:

"The tabernacle was broken into and unknown persons stole 80 hosts."

Episcopal Vicar Heinrich Schnuderl commented on the robbery of the All Holiest, "horrified":

"The desecration of a host is for us Christians an attack against the center of our faith."

It is manifestly not clear any more, that the Host in the tabernacle, "the body of Christ", is the All Holy for Catholics.

The Episcopal Vicar identified the sacrilege, supposedly, with "a Toraroll in the Jewish Synagogue or an Islamic Koran, and also comparable to the desecration of a grave for example, in a Jewish graveyard."


I trust everyone understands there is so much wrong with the above quote. A Toraroll in a Jewish Synagogue. An Islamic Koran. A Jewish.. graveyard..

In the blogosphere there've been two exposes about two now common practices in the new liturgy.

Communion in the Hand, and the use of extra large sized hosts.

I would like to post the pictures showing what the results of these two practices are.

First the use of extra large sized hosts that have to be broken into pieces for the Communicants:

(http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Unconsecrated Extra Large Host and Fragments.jpg) (http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Unconsecrated Extra Large Host and Fragments 2.jpg)

The priest who took the pictures describes the experience of breaking these hosts:

'. . .  when these are "broken" after the Consecration of the Mass, during the "Breaking of the Bread" that large fragments of the host fly all over the place, on clothes, corporal, floor and elsewhere. I saw this happen this morning. . . I was breaking the large breads and realized that against my black trousers and the florescent light, I could see large and small fragments flying everywhere! If I had filmed this in slow motion, it would look like these fragments would become like an aerosol spray or a sneeze from a person’s mouth filmed in slow motion. One can’t see this during Mass with the white altar cloth background and the lighting of the Church. I have already made a decision no longer to use the large, whole wheat hosts because I would find large fragments on the corporal after the Breaking of the Bread. But I had no idea to what extent this was happening. On top of that, the broken hosts from the large one have a very jagged edge with large fragments easily falling as these are given to communicants.'

I can only think of the judgement of God..

[To see even unconsecrated hosts taken pictures of in 'Tupperware'. . . I am shaking my head.]

The second series of photos are of a black glove and regular unconsecrated hosts -- showing again, what happens with Communion in the hand.

The glove before, the glove after:

(http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Glove Before 1.jpg) (http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Glove Before 2.jpg)

(http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Glove After 1.jpg) (http://www.saintsworks.net/images/Glove After 2.jpg)

As you can see before the glove holds the host, and after, there are fragments of the host left behind.

This is not inconsequential. This is beyond human comprehension of consequence, it is so deep and terrible.

A child could understand this. When people do not -- there is a reason.

The relaxation of any real discipline in regards to the Eucharist has happened for many reasons. But what can be done to stop this?

What we can do is make priests aware of these photographs and these problems, and pray, and write letters, and petition for these practices to be banned because of the consistent sacrilegious treatment of Christ.. trampled under the feet of men, ignored, neglected, treated like nothing of importance, even by those who should love Him best, care for Him, and serve Him in all.

We can make people aware of what is happening to Our Lord.

We can fight for the love of our Lord and make reparation for those who neglect Him, in the tabernacle.

The proper term for the offense in this case is not 'desecration' but 'sacrilege'.

Sacrilege against the Eucharist is the gravest form of the sin of sacrilege that exists.

'. . . the highest place belongs to the sacraments whereby man is sanctified: chief of which is the sacrament of the Eucharist, for it contains Christ Himself.

Wherefore the sacrilege that is committed against this sacrament is the gravest of all.

The second place, after the sacraments, belongs to the vessels consecrated for the administration of the sacraments; also sacred images, and the relics of the saints, wherein the very persons of the saints, so to speak, are reverenced and honored. After these come things connected with the apparel of the Church and its ministers; and those things, whether movable or immovable, that are deputed to the upkeep of the ministers. And whoever sins against any one of the aforesaid incurs the crime of sacrilege.'

St. Thomas Aquinas

Discussing the sin of sacrilege:

'And let us remark here in passing, that it is sacrilege above all things that brings upon us sickness and death; for, says the Apostle, He that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord; and then he adds: therefore are many infirm and weak among you.

And St. John Chrysostom, in explanation of that passage, says that St. Paul speaks of persons who were chastised with bodily infirmities, because they received the sacrament with a guilty conscience.'

[I will add that I recall reading in the Desert Fathers a quotation that said there is no surer sign of a person's damnation, than for that person to live a life where one is not chastised for one's sins in this life but instead has material enjoyments. - Shin]

Speaking of the Sorrowful Heart of Jesus:

'It is impossible to consider how afflicted the heart of Jesus was for love of us and not to pity him. He him self tells us that his heart was overwhelmed with such sorrow, that this alone would have sufficed to take his life away, and to make him die of pure grief, if the virtue of his divinity had not, by a miracle, prevented his death: My soul is sorrowful even unto death.  

The principal sorrow which afflicted the heart of Jesus so much was not the sight of the torments and infamy which men were preparing for him, but the sight of their ingratitude towards his immense love. He distinctly foresaw all the sins which we should commit after all his sufferings and such a bitter and ignominious death. He foresaw, especially, the horrible insults which men would offer to his adorable heart, which he has left us in the Most Holy Sacrament as a proof of his affection. O my God, what affronts has not Jesus Christ received from men in this Sacrament of love? One has trampled him under foot, another has thrown him into the gutters, others have availed themselves of him to pay homage to the devil!

And yet the sight of all these insults did not prevent him from leaving us this great pledge of his love. He has a sovereign hatred of sin; but still it seems as if his love towards us had overcome the hatred he bore to sin, since he was content to permit these sacrileges, rather than to deprive the souls that love him of this divine food. Shall not all this suffice to make us love a heart that has loved us so much?

Has not Jesus Christ done enough to deserve our love? Ungrateful that we are, shall we still leave Jesus forsaken on the altar, as the majority of men do? And shall we not unite ourselves to those few souls who acknowledge him, and melt with love more even than the torches melt away which burn round the ciborium?'

Excerpts from St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Now here is a story of how the Eucharist is properly reverenced:

OF THE MANNER IN WHICH THE BLESSED SACRAMENT, WHICH HAD BEEN STOLEN IN A PARISH OF THE DIOCESE OF NAPLES, WAS MIRACULOUSLY FOUND, IN THE YEAR 1772.

HAVING received information from many persons of the wonderful occurrence that I am now going briefly to relate, I endeavored to collect evidence sufficient to enable me to publish an account of it; and I first obtained a full relation of the fact, written by a priest of the same town, who was one of the eye-witnesses of the miracle. But not satisfied with this, I read myself the authentic process that was drawn up by the Archi-episcopal Court of Naples, by order of his Eminence Cardinal Sersale, the present Archbishop. The process is very long, consisting of 364 pages a most careful investigation into the facts having been made by the officers of the court from the evidence of many priests and lay persons, all of whom, in perfect agreement, made their depositions on oath.

It happened on the morning of the 28th of January, in the past year 1772, at a place called S. Pietro a Paterno, in the diocese of Naples, that the tabernacle of the parish church, in which the Blessed Sacrament was reserved, was found open, and that the two ciboriums, a large and a small one, containing many particles, had been taken away.

For several days the whole neighbor hood was in the greatest distress and grief; and though the most diligent search was made, no tidings could be obtained either of the ciboriums or of the sacred particles.

At last, on Thursday, the i8th of February, a certain youth, Giuseppe Orefice, of about eighteen years old, as he was passing in the evening near the property of the Duke of Grottolelle, saw a number of lights, which had the appearance of bright stars. The following evening he saw the same thing, and on coming home he told his father what he had seen; his father, however, would not believe him.

On the following day, about an hour before sunrise, the father was passing by the same spot, with Giuseppe and his brother Giovanni (a child of eleven years), who, turning to his father, said: "See, father, the lights of which Giuseppe spoke to you yesterday evening, and you would not believe him!"

On the evening of the same day, the same boys, on coming home, again saw the lights in the same place. Don Girolamo Guarino, the confessor of Giuseppe Orefice, was then informed of it, who, in company with his brother Don Diego, also a priest, went to the spot where the lights had been seen, and meanwhile sent for Orefice, who, on coming there with his brother and a person called Tomaso Piccino, again saw the lights; but at that time the priests saw nothing.

On the evening of Monday, the 23d-of February, Orefice returned to the spot with Piccino and a man named Carlo Marotta, and met on the road two strangers, who stopped and asked them what those many lights were which they had just distinctly seen, and which twinkled like stars. They replied that they did not know; and, taking leave of the strangers, they ran in haste to mark the spot where they had seen the lights. As soon as they had marked the spot, which was distant a few steps from the hedge, and in which was a poplar-tree higher than the rest of the trees, they went to find the two priests already mentioned, told them what had occurred, and returned all together to the spot.

When they were all there, with a child of five years, nephew to the two priests, the child cried out: "See, there are the lights, which look like two candles." (Here we must observe, that the lights did not always appear in the same manner.) At the same moment Orefice saw these two lights, and said they shone like two stars; Carlo and Tomaso also saw them, and three Other children of Signer Guarino, close to the poplar already mentioned.

After this they heard the shouting of many people, who, from a stack of straw which was on the property, were begging the priest to come and see in the stack a great light in the appearance of a flame. In the mean time, a woman named Lucia Marotta threw herself with her face to the ground on the spot where the light was seen.

The priests and many other persons ran up, and having lifted up the woman, commenced to dig the ground; but then they found nothing. The two brothers, Giuseppe Orefice, with Tomaso Piccino and Carlo Marotta, then returned to the town; and going along the Strada Regia they heard the cries of those who had remained on the spot. Going back there, Piccino fell suddenly upon his face; and after a few steps, Giuseppe felt him self pushed forward on the shoulders, and he also at once fell to the ground. In the same way, and at the same moment, the other two, Carlo Marotta and Giovanni, Giuseppe's brother, also fell; and all four felt their heads wounded, as if they had received a severe blow with a stick.

Having risen, they went forward a few steps; Giuseppe, as also Carlo, Tomaso, and Giovanni, saw a brilliant light as of the sun coming forth from beneath the poplar-tree; and they all four saw rising out of this light, to about four or five feet in height, a dove, which was almost as brilliant as the light itself: the dove, however, gliding down into the earth at the foot of the poplar, from which it came out, disappeared, as also did the light. What the dove signified is not known; but it appears certain that it was something supernatural; and all the persons already mentioned gave evidence of the fact upon oath before the Vicar-General of Naples.

After this, remaining in the same place, they all cried out: "See, there are the lights!" And going on their knees they began to seek for the sacred particles. While Piccino was scooping out the earth with his hands, they saw one particle come out white as paper. They then sent to call the priests. Don Diego Guarino came, and kneeling down he took the sacred particle and put it in a white linen handkerchief, amid the tears and devotion of all the people, who wept bitterly.

He then began to search more carefully; and having removed some more earth, he saw a group of about forty particles appear, which had not lost their whiteness, although they had been buried for nearly a month from the time they were stolen. They were placed in the same handkerchief, and the earth in which they were found was also removed.

It being now rumored about, other priests of the place came to the spot, bringing with them a ciborium, cotta, stole, canopy, and torches. In the mean time a priest and a gentleman went to Monsignor the Vicar-General to know what was to be done. An order came that the particles should be carried in procession to the church. They did so, and arrived at the church about half-past eleven at night, when the particles were placed in the tabernacle.

This took place on the night of the 24th of February. The people were much consoled, but not fully so, be cause the greater part of the particles, as was supposed, were still wanting.

But on the evening of the following Tuesday, the 25th, a small light, but very brilliant, was seen in the same place as at the first, by many persons, country-people, gentlemen, as also by the priests Don Diego Guarino and Don Giuseppe Lindtner, who wrote for me an account of the whole affair, as I mentioned at the begin ning. This priest, being much terrified, pointed to a mustard-plant which was growing there, and cried out: "O Jesus, O Jesus! look at the light there, look at it!" Upon which the others also saw a most dazzling light which rose about a foot and a half from the ground, and formed itself on the top into the figure of a rose. Giuseppe Orefice, who was there, affirmed that the light was so brilliant that his eyes remained for some time dazzled and dimmed.

They began, therefore, to seek the remainder of the particles in that place, but found none; but on the evening of the following day, the 26th of February, a number of lights was seen round the stack of straw by three cavalry soldiers of the regiment called Borbone, Pasquale de S. Angelo of the diocese of Atri and Penne, Giuseppe Lanzano, and Angelo di Costanzo of Acerra, who were all examined before the archiepiscopal court. These deposed before Monsignor the Vicar-General, that as they were riding round the royal villa of Caserta, where his majesty the king then resided, they saw on the property above mentioned " several lights like shining stars." These are the very words of the soldiers, as taken down in the process.

This story of devotion and reverence goes on..

You will find the full story in St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori's book 'The Holy Mass'. Which you can find on Saints' Books (http://www.saintsbooks.net).

More stories of reverence of the Eucharist:

"On August 14, 1730 the yearly procession in honor of Our Lady's Assumption was taking place in Siena. Practically the whole town turned out for the feast leaving the Church of St. Francis unattended. At the same time the town's people were occupied in honoring the Queen of Heaven thieves desecrated her Son present in the Eucharist by stealing a large ciborium full of consecrated hosts.

When the theft was discovered the people were shocked and went into mourning. They prayed for pardon for this terrible sacrilege and begged God for light on how to recover the Sacred particles. Their petitions were heard. Within three days the hosts were found. On the morning of the 17th a choir boy in the Church of Holy Mary in Provenzano, near the Church of St. Francis, noticed something white in the alms box. There among the dust and cobwebs were the Sacred Particles. The Archbishop himself carefully cleaned and counted them, one by one. There were 351 Sacred Hosts that were brought back with great solemnity to the Church of St. Francis.

But this was not the end; it was the beginning of a tremendous Eucharistic prodigy that is still going on. The Conventual Franciscan friars who now had the hosts restored to their church could not consume them as there was a continuous procession of people from Siena who came to adore the Sacred Particles day after day. It soon became evident that contrary to natural conditions the Particles remained in their original freshness. From time to time, over the centuries, the Sacred Particles were received in Holy Communion, so that now there are only 223 Particles remaining. But these are still in a state of perfect preservation. "

"During the 13th century St. Anthony of Padua was reported to have converted a hardened heretic through a rather unique contest. The heretic, by the name of Bononillo, was unmoved by the reasoning of the "hammer of heretics," as St. Anthony was called. Bononillo was as stubborn as the mule that stood beside him.

Eyeing the mule, Anthony made an offer to Bononillo. He asked him whether he would give up his heresy if the mule were to bow down and adore its Creator present in the Blessed Sacrament. The heretic answered he would, provided he could lay down certain conditions: for two days the mule was not to be fed, and on the third day it was to be led into the public square. On one side of the square would be placed a tempting pile of fresh feed, on the opposite side Anthony could stand with what Bononillo contemptuously called the "body of Christ." Anthony agreed, but in all humility made one condition. If the animal did not kneel before the Blessed Sacrament, his sins alone were to be blamed.

The day arrived for this strange contest and the square was crowded with people. When the derisive Bononillo arrived with his half-starved mule, he was fully confident that his mule had sense and appetite enough to go after the feed. But he was wrong. Anthony had implored his Lord in the intervening two days for the soul of this heretic. God did not let his faithful servant down. When turned loose, the mule without the least hesitation advanced towards Anthony and knelt in an attitude of adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. With much emotion and contrition the heretic too fell on his knees and gave up his heresy. As wonderful as these miracles are the greatest of all, transubstantiation, has to be viewed with the eyes of faith."

- Martin Herbert

As you can see, even a mule can know to kneel before the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar.  :D  :'(

These sacrileges are so obvious, but no one seems perturbed, not the priests nor the laity.  Where are altar server boys gone who would hold the paten under the chin of the Communicant to catch the Sacred Particles?  Shouldn't Bishops be getting concerned about this? :(

These are so deeply troubled times.

One should watch the pagans and other religions and how stubbornly they hold on their traditions and religious practices and refuse to budge an inch towards innovation and modernization. And look at us the Catholics with the one true God and true faith and how we treat the greatest treasure on heaven and earth, the Eucharist.   I'm mortified. :-[

'I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many bishops are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a bishop swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side.'

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

'Look higher still, and see the prelates of the Holy Church, pastors who have the charge of souls. Is the number of those who are saved among them greater than the number of those who are damned? Listen to Cantimpre; he will relate an event to you, and you may draw the conclusions. There was a synod being held in Paris, and a great number of prelates and pastors who had the charge of souls were in attendance; the king and princes also came to add luster to that assembly by their presence. A famous preacher was invited to preach. While he was preparing his sermon, a horrible demon appeared to him and said, "Lay your books aside. If you want to give a sermon that will be useful to these princes and prelates, content yourself with telling them on our part, 'We the princes of darkness thank you, princes, prelates, and pastors of souls, that due to your negligence, the greater number of the faithful are damned; also, we are saving a reward for you for this favor, when you shall be with us in Hell.'"'

St. Leonard of Port Maurice

'Nothing afflicts the heart of Jesus so much as to see all His sufferings of no avail to so many.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

It is as though Jesus said: "O My Father, I am indeed going to clothe myself with human flesh, but the greater part of the world will set no value on my blood!"

St. Isidore of Seville, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

It's true, you could say the simple key and foundation of every problem, simply is the loss, the loss of tradition and love and respect of it.

With this, one of the pillars of the Church, displaced, it is no wonder that all the rest falls apart.

The word itself 'tradition', the animus against it, the bad feelings pervading those in power everywhere -- it is the simple answer to everything.

These are undoubtedly the worst of all times.
We must pray so much for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart..
In an earlier post it was explained why our dear Lord became bread so as we would experience no repugnance when receiving Him. What thanks indeed is this, that even among His own people He is shown no regard with such irreverent practices as spoke of above and witnessed probably by us all.

O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

I have been posting the above message in other places on the web, it should be shared everywhere in some form or another.

I was looking for a quote to inspire me, as I did this, and this is the first quote that appeared.. the first.. I swear to God.

'This is the way I am dealt with by the priests who are my betrayers. . . They put on a happy and pleasant face for me and lead me to a hidden place where they can betray me. . . Their sentence is condemnation. David condemned those who were disobedient to God, not out of anger or bad will or impatience, but out of divine justice, because he was a righteous prophet and king. I, too, who am greater than David, condemn these priests, not out of anger or bad will but out of justice. Accursed be everything they take from the earth for their own profit, for they do not praise their God and Creator who gave them these things. Accursed be the food and drink that enters their mouths and fattens their bodies to become food for worms and destines their souls for Hell. Accursed be their bodies that will rise again in Hell to be burned without end. Accursed be the years of their useless lives. Accursed be their first hour in Hell that never will end. Accursed be their eyes that saw the light of heaven. Accursed be their ears that heard my words and remained indifferent. Accursed be their sense of taste by which they tasted my gifts. Accursed be their sense of touch by which they handled me. Accursed be their sense of smell by which they smelled delightful things and neglected me, the most delightful of all. May they be accursed by earth and sky and every brute creature. These obey and glorify God, whereas they have shunned him. Therefore, I swear by the truth, I who am the Truth that if they die like this with such a disposition, neither my love nor my virtue will ever encompass them. Instead, they will be forever damned.'

The Lord, to St. Bridget of Sweden

If you go to a new liturgy where Communion in the Hand is given.

Perhaps you receive on the tongue alone. Perhaps you kneel.

But perhaps no one else, or next to no one else does.

Consider the floor of the chapel after Communion in the Hand, and walking across it.

It is a thought that has come to me for the first time tonight.

Think about it. . . Words cannot express.

I shudder to think of it. The other day a woman ahead of me dropped the Host , picked it up from the floor, in her mouth and on her way. May God have mercy on us!

Today a Novus Ordo priest said that anyone who says that Communion in the hand is wrong is total nonsense.

If try to tell anyone they will either not even understand what you are trying to say (if you ever mention the Council of Trent you will just get blank stare -- even with the priests) or think that you are a "holier-than-thou" (I despise this term since it is so malicious and impious) and tell you that "God isn't that picky" or somethings. I am also wonder how so many lay-people can distribute Holy Communion with so little effect on their spiritual lives and how many people that receive Communion in the hand every Sunday without a major visible effects on their lives. If they are truly believe it is Body of Christ then why not treat it like that, why are talking and laughing right after Communion, even when are walk back to the pews? It is fault of bad priests who are wolves in sheeps clothing (if you are not with Christ then you are with Satan) and bad laity (because bad pastors are God's chastisement).

There will be blood to pay for this. God will not be mocked.

I don't know that this is the worst time the Church has experienced, for instance look at the Arian Heresy that had such a following of bishops centuries ago. Look at the numerous priests that were taking bribes and having children, etc. Granted, this is a very bad time since the Church is made up of humans, however God is strongest in our weakness. :crucifix:
Sacrilege against the Blessed Sacrament is terrible and it bothers me to no end >:( , however that is due to my own lack of faith :' . We need to pray fervently for the priests and parishioners who don't seem to care and leave the rest to Him.

What I cannot bear to think of is how many people, having Communion in the Hand, leave fragments of the Host everywhere.. to be trod upon. . . by all.

I must investigate this matter further, and I am doing so. I need to learn how severe it is.

Those who commit sacrilege with the Blessed Sacrament need desperately to be prayed for as the chastisement that they face from Him is awesome to even think about.

I've read an article concerning this matter many years ago and much of what I learnt will be a bit sketchy now but I do recall that the sacrament only persists while it remains sense perceptible, IE, able to be discerned by the senses.
This would mean that very small particles of the Host would not persist as the Body of Christ as long as they were undetectable by the senses (too small to be seen or felt for instance).

All sacraments must have this sense-perceptible aspect regarding the matter used as proper to the sacrament like for example in baptism, if so little water was used as to be invisible to the senses (if that were possible) then the sacrament would be invalid.

This however does not seem to be the case concerning the article you posted. The small particles were obviously visible to the priest and can easily be seen on the picture of the glove.
This is a grave cause for concern regarding Communion in the hand.

Do you think though Baily that one method of receiving might be better than another or are they all equal?
Considering that outward disposition is related to the inward and that reverence or lack of can be contagious, does it not ultimately become a case of Lex Orandi, lex credendi?  :-\

(as we pray, so we believe)

Is this a trick question?   ;D

No, many would think it a matter of opinion, however the traditionalists among us do have a particular answer in mind :D.


We promise not to pounce on you (right Martin?) whatever you say. We will express our disagreement if such is the case, however no malice will be intended. O:)

I am short of time for now to get into a lengthy discussion.  However, I have combed the catechism on this subject.  I find not one place where it says one way to receive is better than another in terms of hand vs tongue.  There is instead a lot about internal disposition, Eucharistic community, mass being a memorial, etc.  It is worth the read.
Later...........

Internal disposition would be affected by how one receives.

BTW, the Baltimore Catechism #2: "The Mass is the sacrifice of the New Law in which Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself to God in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine." So you'd want to add that to the definition that you have already stated.

(real quick; hubby is home......)

I think how one receives is affected by ones internal dispostion....... and understanding thereof; not the reverse. 

Yes re: BC#2.  It says that in the new catechism also....... no lessening of that intended in my last post.
 :happywave:

I agree with you as to how one receives affecting ones internal disposition, however the Church does teach "lex orandi, lex credendi" and I believe that, too.

"the church prays as the church believes"......... that's what I said.  How we receive the Eucharist externally reflects how we believe inside.  But, I just think there is more to it than hands vs tongue.   

I also think that how we believe inside can be influenced by what we do on the outside.  Dress and talk like your friends and you will become what your friends are...........    Says a lot for where the church is these days in other ways besides the topic of this thread........... (and I'm sure Brigid you will agree with this and might take it as a support of receiving on the tongue even though that's not quite how I intend this to be interpreted).

Got to go help my son study now.........  I'm turning into my son!!

Garbage in....... garbage out. ;D

I wasn't taught in RCIA how to receive in any way other than my hands. I like feeling like a little bird being fed by Mother Church on the tongue. I like the humility it demands of me. Somehow it seems more "right" to receive on the tongue. I seem to remember reading that some bishops in the US started having their priests give Communion in the hand due to wanting people to approach Jesus as other adults approaching each other. Rather the same reason as them wanting to do away with kneeling.

Now the sacrilege is certainly there and although there have been some problems with the Eucharist always, they are more common now.

Actually, I think it was because they were kneeling in front of a priest with all the implications of that, but I understand your point.

For me It really boils down to who God is and who I am.
He is Who is and (whether or not I believe or know it) I am nothing but the dust of the earth.
The only proper attitude fitting in the presence of the Almighty is that of humility.
If the angels feel it befitting in His presence to prostrate themselves on the ground, foreheads touching the floor.
then the very least I can do is go on my knees.
For sure I'll be on my knees before Him on the day of judgement trembling that He may call me to account for the times I stood proudly before Him as if I were His equal when He came to me in the form of bread.

Even today one can see dignitaries genuflecting to the queen of England as a mark of respect for the position she holds.
I really can't find even one reason, neither in reverence, humility or example that could justify receiving the Lord on the hand while standing. 

Can't help that I am an American patriot through and through.  The notion of kneeling to a Queen  :o  is not in my blood!  


Me neither; if one feels it is the best and only way.......... for every individual on the face the earth.  :o
(are you ready for me to leave yet Martin?   :angelyellow:)

Of course not Baily.  I know on certain things we differ, you see the grey area and I (I've been told) am too black and white.  :)

I wouldn't say that everyone in the whole world should kneel. The elderly or infirm would of course have a legitimate reason not too but can you give me one good reason to excuse the rest of us?  :irishwisdom:

Different cultural expressions of respect (bowing, touching the hand to the lips, head, and heart, crossing ones self "backwards" three times, etc).


As for Queens, Kings, and Popes........ I might settle for a bow....... head up of course  ;D 

Hmmm.. I'm thinking about this...  ???.... But can't you do all those things while kneeling?  ;D

 :rotfl: :rotfl:

if you wish! 

 :rotfl: :rotfl:

Or even better.. We could try and find out what the Lord would wish.  ;D

Hey Martin, the next time He appears to you and tells you what He wishes, let me know.  ;D

My understanding of His Wish is that we exercise utmost charity in all things......... why would you tell a child their way of praying is wrong if that is the only way they understand how to pray for now?  How would they feel?  Would they feel motivated to progress or just give up in disgust or anger or just plain discouragement?   Just a thought,  ooops, the pasta is overflowing! :o

Actually, I thought about this because there was a reading from I Corinthians today.  Just popped in....... as we joked here.  Hope you took it with a smile as I sent it with a grin.
Nite.

That one is too complicated for me - worse than patting your head and rubbing your tummy.

I heard a story on Catholic radio about a Lutheran woman saying to her Catholic husband, "If you really believed that the Eucharist was the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, you would crawl up the aisle on your knees". In another story there a Mexican man did just that.

The Byzantine way of crossing ones self is forehead, heart, right to left (rather than left to right).  That's what I mean by backwards.  Some of them cross themselves three times (backwards)  as an expression of the core Catholic belief in the Trinity.  They stand for communion (even as a kid I stood) but receive in under both species via a long spoon that sort of flips the wine soaked cube of bread into the mouth. 

In Mexico, there is a shrine to Our Lady of Guadalupe where the pilgrims process on their knees a long way on the cement to the actual shrine.  Most are bleeding when they get there.