Have you heard of the term empyrean Heaven?

Reply to Objection 3. Isaias is not speaking there of any corporeal heaven, but of the heaven of the Blessed Trinity; unto which the sinning angel wished to ascend, when he desired to be equal in some manner to God, as will appear later on (63, 3).

Hi Shin. Nope, first time. I had trouble thinking of Heaven as a place in which sinning is possible. This RtO3 tells me that sin occurred outside the heaven of the Blessed Trinity. This I can understand. 

I am glad to hear that the opinion he was quite aged is without grounds.

Shin, I have been waiting to read something related to St. Joseph for so long.....thanks. 

[That act alone, the rule of which is the very virtue of the agent, can never fall short of rectitude.]

Hi Shin:
A precedent? (From: What was Satan's first sin? )

 “Shin, that was an excellent reading for me, and yes, I had read part of it in the past. I still believe that whatever their sin was, it came as a result (side effect if we can put it like that) of the choices they made which were not intrinsically sinful.”

Article 1. Whether the evil of fault can be in the angels?
……sinning is nothing else than a deviation from that rectitude which an act ought to have; whether we speak of sin in nature, art, or morals. That act alone, the rule of which is the very virtue of the agent, can never fall short of rectitude.

Reply to Objection 2. The heavenly bodies have none but a natural operation. Therefore as there can be no evil of corruption in their nature; so neither can there be evil of disorder in their natural action. But besides their natural action there is the action of free-will in the angels, by reason of which evil may be in them.

“Maybe it was pride or envy, but it should have been not instantly (which will imply that God created sin). I believe it was a process in which they lose their given grace and at the same time, they started experiencing evil (absence of God) outside Heaven.”

Reply to Objection 3. It is natural for the angel to turn to God by the movement of love, according as God is the principle of his natural being. But for him to turn to God as the object of supernatural beatitude, comes of infused love, from which he could be turned away by sinning.

“Since time doesn’t exist in Heaven; that process could has lasted centuries or seconds.”

Article 5. Whether the devil was wicked by the fault of his own will in the first instant of his creation?

We must therefore reply that, on the contrary, it was impossible for the angel to sin in the first instant by an inordinate act of free-will. For although a thing can begin to act in the first instant of its existence, nevertheless, that operation which begins with the existence comes of the agent from which it drew its nature; just as upward movement in fire comes of its productive cause. Therefore, if there be anything which derives its nature from a defective cause, which can be the cause of a defective action, it can in the first instant of its existence have a defective operation; just as the leg, which is defective from birth, through a defect in the principle of generation, begins at once to limp.

“As I see it, free will was given to angels prior to the existence of evil or sin, or we would end up saying that evil and sin were created by God. As cold is the absence of heat, evil and sin are the absence of God.”

But the agent which brought the angels into existence, namely, God, cannot be the cause of sin. Consequently it cannot be said that the devil was wicked in the first instant of his creation.


“If the possibility of sin exists in Heaven, then we should expect the possibility of being judge again after our final judgment. The promise of a new earth and a new heaven suppose no boundaries (I think), therefore no possibility of sin. Again, it’s a theory of course. Does this make any sense to you?”

I answer that, Sin can exist in a subject in two ways: first of all by actual guilt, and secondly by affection. As to guilt, all sins are in the demons; since by leading men to sin they incur the guilt of all sins. But as to affection only those sins can be in the demons which can belong to a spiritual nature. Now a spiritual nature cannot be affected by such pleasures as appertain to bodies, but only by such as are in keeping with spiritual things; because nothing is affected except with regard to something which is in some way suited to its nature. But there can be no sin when anyone is incited to good of the spiritual order; unless in such affection the rule of the superior be not kept. Such is precisely the sin of pride--not to be subject to a superior when subjection is due. Consequently the first sin of the angel can be none other than pride.

Is there a possibility that Santan’s first sin was committed in Earth, just moments before Eve committed hers?  Is this why he was punished immediately along with Adan and Eve?

Genesis 3:
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because you have done this thing, you are cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon your breast shall you go, and earth shall you eat all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmities between you and the woman, and your seed and her seed: she shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for her heel.

 

I was reading the other day about the space weather, and there was a solar flare the other day:

"After four years without any X-flares, the sun has produced two of the powerful blasts in less than one month: Feb. 15th and March 9th. This continues the recent trend of increasing solar activity, and shows that Solar Cycle 24 is heating up. NOAA forecasters estimate a 5% chance of more X-flares during the next 24 hours."

Not wise to travel to Venus this weekend....

We keep hold of Him only by the ways taught in the Gospel.

.....and Apostolic Tradition.

Johannes Kepler [1571-1630]
Astronomy/Laws of Planetary Motion

"I had the intention of becoming a theologian...but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for 'the heavens declare the glory of God.'"
"I am a Christian...I believe... only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ...In Him is all refuge, all solace."
"Let my name perish if only the name of God the Father is thereby elevated."
"[God] is the kind Creator who brought forth nature out of nothing."


Blaise Pascal [1623-1662]
Scientist noted for work in physics, hydrostatics, vacuums; inventor of mechanical calculator

"Jesus Christ, I have separated myself from Him:
I have fled from Him, denied Him, crucified Him.
Let me never be separated from Him.
We keep hold of Him only by the ways taught in the Gospel.
Renunciation, total and sweet.
Total submission to Jesus Christ..."

Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy

“All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.”
"The undevout astronomer must be mad."

Yes, quite so. Some saint or father, some historical authority supporting the idea.

I haven't found any. They all talk about the nature of the sin and when did it happen (in the first second of creation or a little later). They do not agree on the latter. One second could be long time, maybe enough for a “process” to take place.

I believe that those exposed to the truth will be judged with more severity than those who remained ignorant. I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion. Therefore the path is clearer and the tools (Sacraments, Rosary, etc.) to achieve salvation plentiful.  

I agree, however it does throw a somewhat different light on venial vs. mortal sin. By this I mean that some of the things we think of as venial sins are a mortal offenses in our relationship with Him.

and through her the world

Could this have been to what you were referring?

Brigid, can you elaborate on this?

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

How do you put harmony between the Big Bang and creation, creation and evolution? If your child has a friend who doesn't believe in God, you must be ready to answer this question.....believe me.

"Never give your wife what she wants. Give her what you know will make her happy."

Wiseman! 

  I will need all your prayers Shin.

Hmm. Well, normally I don't think of God as 'needing', how about 'wanting'.

But I should not nitpick! It is poetic.

I could nitpick 'wanting' too after all if I wanted to go too far. 

Vamos Shin, es solo poesia. (got this? )

Now that you mention "need" vs "want". Is it possible to "want" something that you don't "need"? Don't ask my wife.        (Spiritually speaking)

Think of an old sage sitting on a mountaintop. People go up to visit him, ask an answer to a question.. the answer given..

There's always something very deep in it, no, more than the surface?  And this is expected.

  Some answers are asked to awaken the dormant questions.

To know, love, and serve God.

That is the answer.

What about my poetic version: He created man because he needed recipients for His immense love.

No JW comes around my house anymore. I have one coworker who is a JW and he owes me 32 answers (no Watchtower canned explanations allowed).......still waiting. Shin, I know more of the JW history than most witnesses. They are being brainwashed and I feel sorry for them because they are good people. I fear that they will not be saved because they don't believe in God. My God is a Trinity, the Son is no angel and the Holy Spirit is no force. They do not know God.