Latest Bible Readings

[Consecrated one]

I have been having a hard time with the bible readings from this last week and since I can't go to Daily Mass and have our Priest explain, I was turning here for some help.

I keep reading of situations in which Jesus will talk the Apostles one way but talk to the crowds in parable that they weren't very able to understand.  It makes it seem like Jesus doesn't really want everyone to understand?  This is also like when God Made Pharaoh stiffnecked and stubborn, apparently so God could show His might.  How does this fit together with our loving Savior God.

I probably sound ignorant - and I truly am - so, please be gentle, I just don't know this stuff!

[Brigid]

I have been having a hard time with the bible readings from this last week and since I can't go to Daily Mass and have our Priest explain, I was turning here for some help.

I keep reading of situations in which Jesus will talk the Apostles one way but talk to the crowds in parable that they weren't very able to understand.  It makes it seem like Jesus doesn't really want everyone to understand?  This is also like when God Made Pharaoh stiffnecked and stubborn, apparently so God could show His might.  How does this fit together with our loving Savior God.

I probably sound ignorant - and I truly am - so, please be gentle, I just don't know this stuff!

I use to wonder the exact same thing.

He talks to the Apostles so that they can clearly teach. He wants the crowds to recognize God in His words, not be explanation, somewhat like Peter did in Matt 16:16-17.

Pharaoh had the opportunity to show God's glory and we don't really know how God dealt with Him (or He with God) at the end of his life.

The fact that He does these things shows that He really loves us and wants us to choose Him, from our heart and will, fully.

I hope this explains it so that you can understand!

[Shin]

I have been having a hard time with the bible readings from this last week and since I can't go to Daily Mass and have our Priest explain, I was turning here for some help.

I keep reading of situations in which Jesus will talk the Apostles one way but talk to the crowds in parable that they weren't very able to understand.  It makes it seem like Jesus doesn't really want everyone to understand?  This is also like when God Made Pharaoh stiffnecked and stubborn, apparently so God could show His might.  How does this fit together with our loving Savior God.

I probably sound ignorant - and I truly am - so, please be gentle, I just don't know this stuff!

I read once that God gives everyone sufficient grace to not sin, normally, and so in the case of Pharaoh, he simply removed the additional graces He usually gives as well, knowing that this would harden Pharoah's heart.

Sufficient grace would not at all I think mean someone has a 50/50 chance, but simply the ability itself to not sin, however improbable the choice. I wonder how small that possibility can get?  

Scary stuff! In any case..

In regards to the Apostles, is yes, God does hide things.. I believe I read once in scripture that He does so, so the truth will not be abused and mocked.. And I know that in another case, in a revelation to St. Bridget, He said He hid the truth about Hell to those who did not seek the truth so that they would serve Him or not for other reasons than fear..

So what this tells me is 'seek and you will find' people who love the truth find it, but people whose personal preferences are not to love the truth do not, and this is God's preference, for a variety of reasons, i.e. they do not love it, they do not deserve it, they do not know it, so they choose what they truly love rather than under force, they do not know it, so they cannot truly mock it, etc.

It reminds me of the 'discipline of the secret' in the early days of Christianity where the deeper truths of the Faith were hidden from the catechumens until they passed certain stages of readiness. Now of course, everything is in the open, but still, you can see many people do not understand the beauty of the truths of the Faith even when stated to them directly..

And so, I think now about apologetics and how you need prayer and grace to bring people to God and not just truthful arguments.. because there has to be a love of the latter to find the latter, and the grace to give this.

The benefit of hidden truth is that life becomes like a treasure hunting expedition. Meditation reveals truth after truth to those who make the sacrifices to love God and His truths..  

[Consecrated one]

Thank you, SO much to both of you, those are parts of the bible that have really
confused me over the years.  I must say, I DO feel like I am treasure seeking and
My Beloved is just waiting for me to find Him, more and deeper all the time.
God Bless you guys.

[Patricia]

Could anyone explain to me the following Bible passage:

31 In that hour, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and he that shall be in the field, in like manner, let him not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose it, shall preserve it. 34 I say to you: in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together: the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left: two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

36 They answering, say to him: Where, Lord? 37 Who said to them: Wheresoever the body shall be, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.

What does it mean by ' Wheresoever the body shall be, thither will the eagles also be gathered together'  ?  In some bibles its vultures instead of eagles. But the Douay Rheims has it as eagles.

[Patricia]

Anyone?

[martin]

Anyone? Undecided

Patricia there’s a lot there to comment on and maybe that’s why we are slow to take up the challenge so I’ll give my thoughts (or a summary of what I’ve read) on one of the topics 33. I think that’s one of the easier ones so I’ll jump in first and leave the more difficult ones for someone else. 

Those who keep their life will loose it etc. This would be rendering unto God what’s Gods, i.e we were created to know love and serve God and not to serve our selfish desires. Therefore those who serve themselves and make themselves the centre of the universe are really worshiping themselves and not God and in so doing are destined to loose their life. Those who unselfishly serve God and reflect this in their service to others (like Jesus washing the feet of the apostles) will save their life for eternal glory.

Looking forward to hear comments on the other topics. 

[Shin]

This is a definitely, 'look it up' one for me. I know I've read commentary on these before.. the eagles or vultures.. there's something in that, prophetic.

[Shin]

'"Wheresoever"... The coming of Christ shall be sudden, and manifest to all the world, like lightning: and wheresoever he shall come, thither shall all mankind be gathered to him, as eagles are gathered about a dead body.'

This I read in the Challoner commentary, which is not quite as informative as I hoped. Let's see where else..

Haydock:

'This seems to have been a proverb or common saying among the Jews. Several of the ancient interpreters, by this body, understand Christ himself, who died for us; and they tell us, that at his second coming the angels and saints, like eagles, with incredible swiftness, will join him at the place of judgment. (Witham) --- When he shall come to judgment, all, as it were by a natural instinct, shall fly to meet him, and receive their judgment. St. Hilary understands this literally; that where his body shall hang upon the cross, there will he appear in judgment, i.e. near the valley of Josaphat; in which place the prophet Joel (chap. iii. ver. 2,) declares, that the general judgment shall take place. (Tirinus)'

St. Thomas's Golden Chain:

Bede. Our Lord was asked two questions, where the good should be taken up, and where the bad left; He gave only one answer, and left the other to be understood, saying, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Cyril. As if He said, As when a dead body is thrown away, all the birds which feed on human flesh flock to it, so when the Son of man shall come, all the eagles, that is, the saints, shall haste to meet Him.

Ambrose. For the souls of the righteous are likened to eagles, because they soar high and forsake the lower parts, and are said to live to a great age. Now concerning the body, we can have no doubt, and above all if we remember that Joseph received the body from Pilate. And do not you see the eagles around the body are the women and Apostles gathered together around our Lord's sepulchre? Do not you see them then, when He shall come in the clouds, and every eye shall behold Him? But the body is that of which it was said, My flesh is meat indeed; and around this body are the eagles which fly about on the wings of the Spirit, around it also eagles which believe that Christ has come in the flesh. And this body is the Church, in which by the grace of baptism we are renewed in the Spirit.

Euseb. Or by the eagles feeding on the dead animals, He has here described the rulers of the world, and those who shall at that time persecute the saints of God, in whose power are left all those who are unworthy of being taken up, who are called the body or carcase. Or by the eagles are meant the avenging powers which shall fly about to torment the wicked.

Aug. Now these things which Luke has given us in a different place from Matthew, he either relates by anticipation, so as to mention beforehand what was afterwards spoken by our Lord, or he means us to understand that they were twice uttered by Him.

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I will add that the "Great Monarch' prophecized often to come before the end of the world is often given the title the 'Great Eagle'.

[Shin]

"where his body shall hang upon the cross, there will he appear in judgment"

This makes me think that who was it, was it Emmerich, who had the bones of Adam far below Golgotha?

[Patricia]

This makes me think that who was it, was it Emmerich, who had the bones of Adam far below Golgotha?

Yes, I think it was Emmerich.

That's a wealth of information you have there.  Thanks a lot, Shin. Eagles would fit in better than vultures. I wonder why Our Lord was intentionally vague about it rather than tell us directly? Probably because people wouldn't be able to understand or digest  it. They were having a tough enough time with his direct teachings. 

And Martin, thank you too. Makes me understand this way better. I was always curious about the vultures and dead body, as to what it meant.

[Shin]

There was a wealth of commentary on the earlier parts of the verses too in the Golden Chain..  You can download it on Saints' Books.

One of these days I'm going to have sit down with it and read the Bible at the same time, going to it for each passage. I don't know why I haven't already, so far I only use it to look things up.

The Golden Chain has commentary from many saints on particular passages all arranged by St. Thomas. It's splendid. The difference between it and what we get in the latest Bible translations today is like night and day.

You get to Luke 17 around page 577, and the later verses of course quite a few pages later with that kind of commentary.


31. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop,
and his stuff in the house, let him not come
down to take it away : and he that is in the field, let
him likewise not return back.
32. Remember Lot's wife.
33. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose
it ; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Ambrose. Because good men must needs on account of the wicked be sore vexed in this world, in order that they may receive a more plentiful reward in the world to come, they are here punished with certain remedies, as it is here said, In that day, &c. that is, if a man goes up to the top of his house and rises to the summit of the highest virtues, let him not fall back to the grovelling business of this world.

Aug. For he is on the housetop who, departing from carnal things, breathes as it were the free air of a spiritual life. But the vessels in the house are the carnal senses, which many using to discover truth which is only taken in by the intellect, have entirely missed it. Let the spiritual man then beware, lest in the day of tribulation he again take pleasure in the carnal life which is fed by the bodily senses, and descend to take away this world's vessels. It follows, And he that is in the field, let him not return back; that is, he who labours in the Church, as Paul planting and Apollos watering, let him not look back upon the worldly prospects which he has renounced.

Theophyl. Matthew relates all these things to have been said by our Lord, with reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, that when the Romans came upon them, they who were on the housetop should not come down to take any thing, but fly at once, nor they that were in the field return home. And surely so it was at the taking of Jerusalem, and again will be at the coming of Antichrist, but much more at the completion of all things, when that intolerable destruction shall come.

Euseb. He hereby implies that a persecution will come from the son of perdition upon Christ's faithful. By that day then He means the time previous to the end of the world, in which let not him who is flying return, nor care to lose his goods, lest he imitate Lot's wife, who when she fled out of the city of Sodom, turning back, died, and became a pillar of salt.

---

These passages all the more make me want to enter religious life.. or at least in this world.. have few belongings. And to give myself over to less and less comfort and more and more austerity in all things to do with the senses. The spirit is willing but weak and the flesh too is weak! God help me to gain the grace to be more ascetic!

[Patricia]

Different interpretations.  For me the last statement about the body and the eagles is most mysterious.

[Brigid]

Eagles:
I have read, Patricia, that in the time of the Roman empire that the roman soldiers wore eagles. In other words 'eagles' refers (then) to the roman empire with it's corruption and attachment to the material. For us throughout history, then, it would refer to attachment to idols that we make ourselves (money, fame, power, etc). In the time of the anti-christ it would refer to the minions of the anti-christ and his/her seeming ability to give money, fame or power, etc. - attachments of this world.

I seem to remember that where I read this was in a book written by Scott Hahn. Now, I don't think as highly of him as I did on first converting, however I do think that there are some areas where he seems to have something good to say. He has quite a bit of knowledge about Scriptural exegesis, even tho' his theology is seems to .... stretch things a bit.

[Shin]

I enjoyed Scott as a convert too, before he started ranging off the reservation with his theology.

The Roman Eagles are quite famous. And I'm glad you thought of them! Because they bring me in mind of the Great Eagle again who is to be the head of a revived Roman Catholic Empire -- that ties it in, in a way that had not occured to me.

Each legion of the Romans had its own Eagle, which in Latin is Aquila. There were some famous stories of lost eagles later recovered under the Emperor Augustus.

Because the eagle is a symbol in this case of the Romans, it's a symbol of both good and evil, because there've been both good and evil emperors.

It's also a popular symbol of good and evil simply because like lions, etc. they are very noble and powerful animals that people love to use as symbols.

Napoleon used the eagle symbol and I believe some prophecies referred to him with an eagle.

Here's part of a prophecy I found reputed to St. Bridget of Sweden, about it is believed the Great King who shall restore the Catholic Faith throughout the world, heading the last great Roman Catholic Empire:

'Let the Greeks know that their empire, their kingdoms, their dominions, shall never be secure or in settled peace, but will always be in subjection by their enemies, from whom they shall have to suffer most grievous hardships and constant distresses: until, with true humility and good will, they shall have submitted themselves to the Church of Rome and to her faith, conforming themselves entirely to the holy rites and ordinances of that Church (Culleton, The Prophets and Our Times , p. 154).'

'The Eagle will also invade the Mohometan countries and will carry the admirable sign in the land of promise (Palestine). Peace and abundance shall return to the world. This most unhappy war shall end when an emperor of Spanish origin will be elected, who will, in a wonderful manner, be victorious through the sign of the Cross. He shall destroy the Jewish and Mahometan sects: he shall restore the Santa Sophia (in Constantinople), and all the earth shall enjoy peace and prosperity; new cities will be erected in many places (Culleton, The Prophets and Our Times , p. 154).'

St. Bridget of Sweden

Aquila rapax. Rapacious Eagle.

Pius VII, Chiarormonti, had a black eagle in his coat of arms. Moreover, the eagle of Napoleon seized first his temporal dominions, then his person. He also was swiftly carried into exile. But the victory of Waterloo over the eagle of Napolen left him at liberty, and he returned to Rome and to the Pontifical States in the month of May, 1814.

- Commentary on the Prophecies of St. Malachy from Fr. Gaudentius Rossi

It's rather offputting to see the duality of the meaning of eagles used in prophecies, representing both good and evil personages. My first thought is to a certain extent it is more a representation of power than of virtue.

[Shin]

Lift not up thy eyes to riches which thou canst not have: because they shall make themselves wings like those of an eagle, and shall fly towards heaven.

Proverbs 23:5