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Saints' Discussion Forums  |  Forums  |  Everything Else  |  Topic: What was Satan's first sin? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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vitomanny
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2011, 06:35:33 PM »

It's great to have you here and asking such thought provoking questions!  Cheesy

Glad to know that. You will not be disappointed.  Grin
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Patricia
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »

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That's why choosing to not accept God is not intrinsically a sin.

Are you saying perhaps that those who are ignorant of the Catholic faith for example someone born in a pagan religion would be committing a lesser sin than someone who studied the faith and mocked at it or rejected it?  It is true that judgement is more severe for Catholics than non-Catholics since they knew and yet sinned.
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'His mother saith to the servants: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.'
~~~John 2:5
Patricia
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2011, 09:03:41 PM »

And yes, welcome to the forum Vitomanny! Smiley
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'His mother saith to the servants: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.'
~~~John 2:5
vitomanny
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2011, 10:24:23 PM »

Are you saying perhaps that those who are ignorant of the Catholic faith for example someone born in a pagan religion would be committing a lesser sin than someone who studied the faith and mocked at it or rejected it?  It is true that judgement is more severe for Catholics than non-Catholics since they knew and yet sinned.

I believe that those exposed to the truth will be judged with more severity than those who remained ignorant. I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion. Therefore the path is clearer and the tools (Sacraments, Rosary, etc.) to achieve salvation plentiful.   

Matthew 11
23. And as for you, Capernaum, did you want to be raised as high as heaven? You shall be flung down to hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. 24. Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.'
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vitomanny
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2011, 11:03:29 PM »

Shin, that was an excellent reading for me, and yes, I had read part of it in the past. I still believe that whatever their sin was, it came as a result (side effect if we can put it like that) of the choices they made which were not intrinsically sinful. Maybe it was pride or envy, but it should have been not instantly (which will imply that God created sin). I believe it was a process in which they lose their given grace and at the same time, they started experiencing evil (absence of God) outside Heaven. Since time doesn’t exist in Heaven; that process could has lasted centuries or seconds.  If the possibility of sin exists in Heaven, then we should expect the possibility of being judge again after our final judgment. The promise of a new earth and a new heaven suppose no boundaries (I think), therefore no possibility of sin. Again, it’s a theory of course. Does this make any sense to you?
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Patricia
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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2011, 10:17:57 AM »

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I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion.

I believe that the Catholic Church is the truth, the Bride of Christ.  Smiley
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'His mother saith to the servants: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.'
~~~John 2:5
vitomanny
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2011, 11:27:29 AM »

I believe that the Catholic Church is the truth, the Bride of Christ.  Smiley

 Cheesy We love the Catholic Church!

I was referring to this:

769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven," at the time of Christ's glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world's persecutions and God's consolations."Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, 'from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,' . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father's presence."
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Patricia
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2011, 04:15:45 PM »

That's true. Smiley
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'His mother saith to the servants: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.'
~~~John 2:5
Shin
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 11:01:57 PM »

Yes, but you must be careful not to say too little vitomanny. Cheesy

I have some thoughts on your hypothesis, but I want to look up a few more things and think over it a little more. Cheesy

What you need is some precedent for it.  Cheesy
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'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus. (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)
Shin
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2011, 11:39:56 PM »

What is the definition of Heaven you are working with for this vitomanny? Cheesy
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'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus. (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)
vitomanny
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2011, 12:13:18 AM »

What is the definition of Heaven you are working with for this vitomanny? Cheesy

A precedent?  Grin.  For me Heaven is whatever it was before creation. This universe (and the earth) will be transformed and God will be "all in all". For me that means that there are going to be no boundaries. Our glorified body will be able to manifest itself in this new place. This is more or less what the angels can do when they pass from Heaven to Earth, but this time Heaven and the Universe will be one. Again, just a theory.
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Brigid
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2011, 01:26:46 PM »

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I believe that those exposed to the truth will be judged with more severity than those who remained ignorant. I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion. Therefore the path is clearer and the tools (Sacraments, Rosary, etc.) to achieve salvation plentiful.  

I agree, however it does throw a somewhat different light on venial vs. mortal sin. By this I mean that some of the things we think of as venial sins are a mortal offenses in our relationship with Him.

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and through her the world

Could this have been to what you were referring?
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vitomanny
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2011, 10:36:43 PM »

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I believe that those exposed to the truth will be judged with more severity than those who remained ignorant. I also believe that the Catholic Church is closer to the truth’s plenitude than any other religion. Therefore the path is clearer and the tools (Sacraments, Rosary, etc.) to achieve salvation plentiful.  

I agree, however it does throw a somewhat different light on venial vs. mortal sin. By this I mean that some of the things we think of as venial sins are a mortal offenses in our relationship with Him.

Quote
and through her the world

Could this have been to what you were referring?

Brigid, can you elaborate on this?
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odhiambo
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2011, 10:07:27 AM »

Thanks Patricia and Rachel. I am still confused. Free will is not necessarily having to choose from good or evil as the only two possible choices. As I see it, free will was given to angels prior to the existence of evil or sin, or we would end up saying that evil and sin were created by God. As cold is the absence of heat, evil and sin are the absence of God. If rejecting God is a sin, then every good person, Christian or not, is “forced” to accept God to avoid evil and sin. In other words, God will be punishing with evil and sin those who choose not to accept Him. God wants us to accept Him because He loves us and wants what is best for us. If you choose not to accept Him, you will be on your own and you will be without His protection and much probably you will end up committing sin and having the same self-inflicted punishment as the fallen angels. Hell is precisely this, total absence of God….and that burns like fire. Please, feel free to comment on these opinions. Thanks.

Hi vitomanny! Quite a thought provoker you have posed here. It is agreed that Satan's first sin was that of "Pride".
In choosing to reject God, Lucifer and his followers knew exactly what the consequences of that act would be and they chose it anyway. Force does not come into it. Rejecting God and expecting to still be under His Providence is like wanting to " have your cake and eat it too."
I like to say it the other way round " You can't eat your cake, and have it too". Smiley
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Shin
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2011, 10:23:10 AM »

What is the definition of Heaven you are working with for this vitomanny? Cheesy

A precedent? 


Yes, quite so. Some saint or father, some historical authority supporting the idea. Cheesy
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'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus. (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)
vitomanny
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2011, 04:45:08 PM »


Yes, quite so. Some saint or father, some historical authority supporting the idea. Cheesy



I haven't found any. They all talk about the nature of the sin and when did it happen (in the first second of creation or a little later). They do not agree on the latter. One second could be long time, maybe enough for a “process” to take place.
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