In paradise today or after the third day or after the Ascension?

[vitomanny]

This was a very interesting question by JW.

Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to you: This day you shall be with me in paradise.

Jesus, after his death descended to hell, resurrected and later ascended to Heaven. When did he "see" the "good thief" again?

[Shin]

The Paradise of the Fathers, or the Limbo of the Fathers, is where Jesus Christ went to preach to the dead. This is where all the departed from the past times, who were not still in Purgatory, waited for Christ to open the gates of Heaven for them.

[vitomanny]

The Paradise of the Fathers, or the Limbo of the Fathers, is where Jesus Christ went to preach to the dead. This is where all the departed from the past times, who were not still in Purgatory, waited for Christ to open the gates of Heaven for them.

Shin, the JW was arguing about the soul going to Heaven. Since they do not believe in the separation of the soul and body after you die, she was asking me how come Jesus said that the robber will be with him in paradise that very same day if he went to Heaven much more later.

[Shin]

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.  And it was almost the sixth hour; and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.  And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."

"In paradise"... That is, in the happy state of rest, joy, and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased, by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief, with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment; and to introduce him immediately after death into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo, that is, the place of their confinement, was now made a paradise by our Lord's going thither.

From the Douay and its commentary above. That is what paradise means there, not Heaven in the sense of the beatific vision or place.

Sorry if that's not too helpful apologetically requiring as it might other explanations. I don't do apologetics anymore if I can help it, and so am not used to it as I used to be.

[Shin]

Any place with Our Lord in the afterlife, one might say, would be paradise, even though it were not yet Heaven.

[vitomanny]

Sorry if that's not too helpful apologetically requiring as it might other explanations. I don't do apologetics anymore if I can help it, and so am not used to it as I used to be.

Shin, that was excellent. I did not see that one coming.    You should not stop doing apologetics. The number of sects are increasing and our children (and adults) are being easy pray. That is why I make all that difficult questions. I need the right answers before someone gives the wrong ones to my children.

[Shin]

Sorry if that's not too helpful apologetically requiring as it might other explanations. I don't do apologetics anymore if I can help it, and so am not used to it as I used to be.

Shin, that was excellent. I did not see that one coming.    You should not stop doing apologetics. The number of sects are increasing and our children (and adults) are being easy pray. That is why I make all that difficult questions. I need the right answers before someone gives the wrong ones to my children.

Haha. Because I am unwilling perhaps there is more grace.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have tons of questions like the one you just asked, aimed directly for bringing Catholics over to their flock. I spent quite awhile talking to some who would stop by my house, but I cannot recommend doing this generally because of the danger since they have worked hard for a very long time to develop routines for converting people, and the emotional package they present can be powerful. Most people aren't prepared to put in what it takes to deal with them, and in the end, the likelihood of converting one of them is minuscule because of a variety of factors.

Are you having trouble with some visiting some family of yours? God keep them I pray.

[vitomanny]

No JW comes around my house anymore. I have one coworker who is a JW and he owes me 32 answers (no Watchtower canned explanations allowed).......still waiting. Shin, I know more of the JW history than most witnesses. They are being brainwashed and I feel sorry for them because they are good people. I fear that they will not be saved because they don't believe in God. My God is a Trinity, the Son is no angel and the Holy Spirit is no force. They do not know God.

[Shin]

No JW comes around my house anymore. I have one coworker who is a JW and he owes me 32 answers (no Watchtower canned explanations allowed).......still waiting. Shin, I know more of the JW history than most witnesses. They are being brainwashed and I feel sorry for them because they are good people. I fear that they will not be saved because they don't believe in God. My God is a Trinity, the Son is no angel and the Holy Spirit is no force. They do not know God.

Yes.. I still remember the fellows who visited me.. It's hard to think of.. God help them to come home..

I will remember the ones you've spoken to in my prayers.

[Shin]

Vitomanny there are saints who have converted tens of thousands of people, often with only a few words.

Grace is what converts sinners, though knowledge is helpful and to an extent necessary.

Become a saint Vitomanny, and you will bring your friends home. 

If it can at all be accomplished, that is the way.

[vitomanny]

  I will need all your prayers Shin.

[Shin]

I'll ask St. Vito to help you for a start.

Goodnight Vitomanny!

[Brigid]

Giving the wrong answers to children is the most important reason I've seen to become an apologist, as Jesus said that the person who blocks a child from coming to Him - it is better for him to have a millstone around him and to be thrown in the water.


Of course, having done this (if possible in this situation) we can then depend on His Mercy in our prayer.

[Patricia]

I've begun training my children already before the wolves get to them.  For example, I will tell my son that one day someone might ask him why he worships Mary. Then I tell him that we don't worship Mother Mary. We love Her and honor Her because She is our Savior's Mother and that other people  have this great misconception about our faith.  The same about the saints and why we pray to them etc etc.  Prepare them way in advance.

[RachelKH]

Patricia -- that is what I trying to do too -- I feel that was my greatest failing in how I raised my 2 oldest children.

[Brigid]

What a wonderful thing that you're doing, Patricia and Rachel. Would that a large portion of Catholics would do the same!