Finding Happiness and Overcoming Depression

[Bailey2]

Have you ever read Fr. Ripperger's "Introduction to the Science of Mental Health"? If you haven't, I highly recommend it. It rebuilds the science of psychology in Catholicism from the start, from the ground up.

I have all three volumes, which I have skimmed.  I do intend to read it at some point but it is extremely heady while I tend to be extremely practical regarding what helps and hurts people from a treatment perspective. 

Let me think about that demon question.  I have a feeling you are baiting me since we have had that discussion before......... 
But since I was the one that made the statement and this is a spiritual forum, you are right to question it. 

[Bailey2]

[quote author=Shin link=topic=141.msg802#msg802 date=1265772827
 Because you know the ordinary role of demons is temptation, and this has to do with influencing what we feel as well as what we think.
[/quote]

If a person is crippled, he/she cannot walk.  If a person is stricken by depression or other mental illness, he/she can't think or feel correctly.  Demons don't make these illnesses.  But the soul, which is neither feelings or thoughts, can cry out to God in either case in the infirmity and God is merciful.  No one questions the role of demons using the mind and feelings when one has Alzheimer's. 

[Brigid]

[quote author=Shin link=topic=141.msg802#msg802 date=1265772827
 Because you know the ordinary role of demons is temptation, and this has to do with influencing what we feel as well as what we think.

If a person is crippled, he/she cannot walk.  If a person is stricken by depression or other mental illness, he/she can't think or feel correctly.  Demons don't make these illnesses.  But the soul, which is neither feelings or thoughts, can cry out to God in either case in the infirmity and God is merciful.  No one questions the role of demons using the mind and feelings when one has Alzheimer's. 
[/quote]

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

[Bailey2]

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

No..... unless the same goes for leprosy.  Sin does not cause illness except in the sense of original sin and the fall of man.  This is true if the illness is in the skin or brain.  And nothing can change the genes or cause them to be any different than they would have been when egg and sperm united.  Ah heck, ALL genetic combinations are flawed!

But yes.... unhealthy practices and not getting treatment when one should can be examples of succumbing to evil/demonic influence  (ie. sinning) in the sense that pride usually is at the root of such behaviors.  And as said above, unhealthy practices (like saying, 'I can handle this by myself' and not seeking help even though one watches ones behaviors deteriorate) can negatively alter brain function over time.  Virtuous practices (praying, taking care of the body and mind, being humble enough to seek help and support when needed, etc) can effect positive brain changes.  

But, I really don't accept that the progressive loss of rationality is directly caused by evil (demonic influence).  I do accept that sinning can contribute to a hastening of illness progression (just as it does for heart or diabetic conditions) or it may have nothing to do with it; depends on the individual and what type..... (incidentally, there is a genetic link between depression and heart disease  ).

Or maybe I didn't understand your comment.    

Boy this thread is getting off track..........   ..........but all of the above suggestions are good!  

[Brigid]

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

No..... unless the same goes for leprosy.  Sin does not cause illness except in the sense of original sin and the fall of man.  This is true if the illness is in the skin or brain.  And nothing can change the genes or cause them to be any different than they would have been when egg and sperm united.  Ah heck, ALL genetic combinations are flawed!

But yes.... unhealthy practices and not getting treatment when one should can be examples of succumbing to evil/demonic influence  (ie. sinning) in the sense that pride usually is at the root of such behaviors.  And as said above, unhealthy practices (like saying, 'I can handle this by myself' and not seeking help even though one watches ones behaviors deteriorate) can negatively alter brain function over time.  Virtuous practices (praying, taking care of the body and mind, being humble enough to seek help and support when needed, etc) can effect positive brain changes.  

But, I really don't accept that the progressive loss of rationality is directly caused by evil (demonic influence).  I do accept that sinning can contribute to a hastening of illness progression (just as it does for heart or diabetic conditions) or it may have nothing to do with it; depends on the individual and what type..... (incidentally, there is a genetic link between depression and heart disease  ).

Or maybe I didn't understand your comment.    

Boy this thread is getting off track..........   ..........but all of the above suggestions are good!  

If seeking help, etc. can cause positive brain changes, then it stands to reason that the inverse is also true and that negative practices and thoughts can effect negative brain changes (and those negative brain changes could then be inherited genetically). It's kind of a take-off on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Anyway, that's what I was talking/posting about earlier.

I have noticed that I personally get a huge lift when I: 1) receive the Eucharist, 2) go to Adoration, 3) pray, 4) help someone else, whether it be physically, emotionally, or just with a smile, and 5) do a virtuous action, especially if no-one knows about it.

I have been reading a little book written by Fr. Daniel Considine, S.J. (RIP) Confidence in God. I came to a portion that speaks to this thread so perfectly.

Who is responsible for every detail of your life? God. If you are discontented, it is, in plain English, rebellion against God/s Will.

Now this in no way denigrates anyone who has a diagnosed disease with a cause that is beyond their will, as Bailey has posted and Fr. Groeschel has said. It is not at all intended, as a guilt inducer, either. As Fr. Considine also wrote that the vast majority of human beings blame God for something. However, it's certainly been a help for me with those things in which my will does have a say. Not that I'm able to internalize the words yet. Seemingly that will come with time.

[Shin]

It seems to me that demonic oppression/suppression may, especially over time, effect the chemicals in the brain and bodily processes, even chemicals in the brain and bodily processes in parents/grandparents, et al, and therefore the genes of them (besides the 'nurture' angle, of course). Doesn't that seem plausible? to you?

No..... unless the same goes for leprosy.  Sin does not cause illness except in the sense of original sin and the fall of man.  This is true if the illness is in the skin or brain.  And nothing can change the genes or cause them to be any different than they would have been when egg and sperm united.  Ah heck, ALL genetic combinations are flawed!

But yes.... unhealthy practices and not getting treatment when one should can be examples of succumbing to evil/demonic influence  (ie. sinning) in the sense that pride usually is at the root of such behaviors.  And as said above, unhealthy practices (like saying, 'I can handle this by myself' and not seeking help even though one watches ones behaviors deteriorate) can negatively alter brain function over time.  Virtuous practices (praying, taking care of the body and mind, being humble enough to seek help and support when needed, etc) can effect positive brain changes.  

But, I really don't accept that the progressive loss of rationality is directly caused by evil (demonic influence).  I do accept that sinning can contribute to a hastening of illness progression (just as it does for heart or diabetic conditions) or it may have nothing to do with it; depends on the individual and what type..... (incidentally, there is a genetic link between depression and heart disease  ).

Or maybe I didn't understand your comment.    

Boy this thread is getting off track..........   ..........but all of the above suggestions are good!  

Well, I want to note that the scriptures do testify to physical illnesses being caused by demons, so we can't limit them only to the spiritual, which actually is the realm of the mental. They're almost words of the same meaning.

I think, though I don't know, that your experience is with the secular side of this science, but you do not have much experience with the spiritual warfare angle. But, let me ask, how do you know what you know about the spiritual warfare side and the influences of angels, demons and God and the devil? Have you studied this?

[Brigid]

Shin posted:

Well, I want to note that the scriptures do testify to physical illnesses being caused by demons, so we can't limit them only to the spiritual, which actually is the realm of the mental. They're almost words of the same meaning.

How about we develop a prayer to the two archangels and the Saint intimately involved - Sts. Michael and Rafael and Dymphna? Is that a workable idea on this forum?

[Bailey2]

If seeking help, etc. can cause positive brain changes, then it stands to reason that the inverse is also true and that negative practices and thoughts can effect negative brain changes (and those negative brain changes could then be inherited genetically). It's kind of a take-off on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Anyway, that's what I was talking/posting about earlier.  (ah, we are in agreement....... but I don't understand how negative brain changes can affect genes? )

I have noticed that I personally get a huge lift when I: 1) receive the Eucharist, 2) go to Adoration, 3) pray, 4) help someone else, whether it be physically, emotionally, or just with a smile, and 5) do a virtuous action, especially if no-one knows about it.  Me too..... #1,3,4,5.  See?  Virtue makes for healthy brain (giggle)





[/quote]

[Bailey2]

I think, though I don't know, that your experience is with the secular side of this science, but you do not have much experience with the spiritual warfare angle. But, let me ask, how do you know what you know about the spiritual warfare side and the influences of angels, demons and God and the devil? Have you studied this?
[/quote]

My intellect is trained secularly.  I know nothing intellectually about angels, demons, God, and the devil.  I have not studied eschatology or theology.  Spiritual warfare we have all experienced in our own unique way deep in the heart and soul.  There also, we experience grace.  I have much experience with both.   

On another forum, there is a thread of prayer for those with mental and emotional illnesses.  This is a good idea Brigid.  

[Shin]

I think, though I don't know, that your experience is with the secular side of this science, but you do not have much experience with the spiritual warfare angle. But, let me ask, how do you know what you know about the spiritual warfare side and the influences of angels, demons and God and the devil? Have you studied this?

My intellect is trained secularly.  I know nothing intellectually about angels, demons, God, and the devil.  I have not studied eschatology or theology.  Spiritual warfare we have all experienced in our own unique way deep in the heart and soul.  There also, we experience grace.  I have much experience with both.  

On another forum, there is a thread of prayer for those with mental and emotional illnesses.  This is a good idea Brigid.  
[/quote]

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.   Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person. It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many.

Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.

[Bailey2]

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.  
The science of the Saints is a science of the heart and soul; not one of books.  Many Saints read nothing scholarly and were graced to sanctity as they experienced spiritual warfare within themselves.  The seer of today's feast day is case in point.  Experience is everything.  


Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person.  Should make for a good Lenten sacrifice  ; but due to the volume and my other commitments, I will only be able to read sections pertaining to the discussion here....... feel free to point out the volume and chapters most pertinent.  Thank you.

It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many.   Are you throwing down a gantlet?  And is there a tone of superiority in that challenge, as if one would be coming up to your intellectual level?      You would make a good college professor.      


Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.
[/quote]

If Galileo and Copernicus only studied ancient Church texts, where would science be?  How much would we know of treating illnesses now if the physicians of past only continued to put holy relics on the ill to chase off demons?  For thousands of years, there has been this tension between Church and science.  Both are necessary and sometimes secular science produces antibiotics, x-ray machines (see inside the body?   horrors), and anesthesia (oh, they aren't dead, they are really asleep!)
Here then, for a layman: www.ncpd.org  

And as I hope, all this discussion is with respectful filial kinship in the Lord (as the protestants would say).  

[Brigid]

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.   Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person. It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many.

Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.

I will look for the book by Fr. Ripperger. I have read The Way of the Pilgrim  which is about a monk who is reading the Philokalia, and really enjoyed it. I was able (with His Grace) to say the Jesus Prayer constantly for about a year (I can't remember just how long as it was a few decades ago). However it sounds l as if reading the Philokalia might be a good place to start for me.

[Brigid]

Well, personal experience is all well and good, but spiritual warfare is a science that has been around for thousands of years. The science of the saints.  
The science of the Saints is a science of the heart and soul; not one of books.  Many Saints read nothing scholarly and were graced to sanctity as they experienced spiritual warfare within themselves.  The seer of today's feast day is case in point.  Experience is everything.  


Which is why I'll strongly suggest that book 'Introduction to the Science of Mental Health' by Fr. Ripperger, where he covers the hows of spiritual interaction with the mind and emotions, including influence by angels, devils, God, etc. and also some details of how virtue and sin affect mental health, and how to to use the former to repair and heal the whole person.  Should make for a good Lenten sacrifice  ; but due to the volume and my other commitments, I will only be able to read sections pertaining to the discussion here....... feel free to point out the volume and chapters most pertinent.  Thank you.

It is a textbook, it's not a layman's book, so I can't recommend it for everyone though, it is a bit too rich for many.   Are you throwing down a gantlet?  And is there a tone of superiority in that challenge, as if one would be coming up to your intellectual level?      You would make a good college professor.      


You, two!

Otherwise, I might recommend the earlier (Catholic) portions of the Philokalia, and similar writings of the saints which treat the matter less systematically.

If Galileo and Copernicus only studied ancient Church texts, where would science be?  How much would we know of treating illnesses now if the physicians of past only continued to put holy relics on the ill to chase off demons?  For thousands of years, there has been this tension between Church and science.  Both are necessary and sometimes secular science produces antibiotics, x-ray machines (see inside the body?   horrors), and anesthesia (oh, they aren't dead, they are really asleep!)
Here then, for a layman: www.ncpd.org  

We all can see now that the 'supposed'(?) tension between science and the Church is not necessary or true at all (for example, look at the Jesuits huge telescope - nuclear? - in Rome). There is no need that secular practitioners or scientists should have any difficulty with Church teaching/practices. Even the 'scientific method' was developed by monks. Why can't we mesh the too? It makes pragmatic sense to me, at least.

And as I hope, all this discussion is with respectful filial kinship in the Lord (as the protestants would say).  



[/quote]

[Shin]

I will look for the book by Fr. Ripperger. I have read The Way of the Pilgrim  which is about a monk who is reading the Philokalia, and really enjoyed it. I was able (with His Grace) to say the Jesus Prayer constantly for about a year (I can't remember just how long as it was a few decades ago). However it sounds l as if reading the Philokalia might be a good place to start for me.

That was how I found the Philokalia too, reading the Way of the Pilgrim then deciding, "Well I have to have this book."

Yes, the first volume might be helpful. It's a beautiful book, I take a number of quotations from it.

Well, actually, let me put it this way. Fr. Ripperger is detailed, Thomistic, and rich. If you don't mind the Summa, or a university textbook, you shouldn't mind him too much. And he'll be quite precise about what he's talking about but you will need to build on concepts, i.e. learn new words and build on how he means them precisely not vaguely, and how they connect to the next.

The Philokalia on the other hand will be a mix of mysticism and practical direct advice about how to deal with virtue, sin and the influence of angels and demons, and discernment. New words to learn here also, and as with the first a handy glossary of definitions.

Both of these books will define and separate the interior faculties of man precisely, so that you can with more perfect introspection examine and analyze each of the particular parts of your mind at work, and what they are capable of doing or not, whether they are spiritual or spiritual/physical, and so forth.

Fr. Ripperger's will more thoroughly do this, the Philokalia less so, in passing as if assuming you already know, which will require trips to the glossary and a notebook if you wish to understand that part.

Should make for a good Lenten sacrifice  ; but due to the volume and my other commitments, I will only be able to read sections pertaining to the discussion here....... feel free to point out the volume and chapters most pertinent.  Thank you.

You would make a good college professor.  

Fr. Ripperger's book would be here. The relevant chapter would be chapter 10, page 529, right in the middle of the book.

Oh I know enough not to recommend too hard books to people, they never read them or are simply confused by them. There's plenty too much to handle for ordinary folks.

Which is one of the reasons colleges have become so dumbed down -- they assume everyone should go, everyone should not, a large portion of the population actually should only be pursuing blue collar work, which is causing a lot of trouble these days -- but that is besides the point.

I've read plenty of books too rich for most, and too rich for me. When I was younger I generally read them anyway, now I tend to put them aside. The Mensa people, I can only marvel at how quick they are.  

College professors generally have to have college degrees. Perhaps it is my father who has rubbed off on me.

A layman's very easy to read introduction to demonic activity that does not focus on the mental aspects, but more on the practical dealing with it, would be something like 'An Exorcist Tells His Story' by Fr. Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome. But this is more focused on the extraordinary rather than ordinary temptation, which frankly, most Catholic books just assume you already know about and don't go into great detail about so that people nowadays who have no idea what they are doing completely miss it when they do read about it, rather like when they read about it in scriptures.

If I had a simple book focused on ordinary temptation sufficiently detailedly I'd recommend it, but I don't. They all focus on other matters largely,treating it indirectly, with that directly just a portion of.  

[Shin]

I suppose I could quote both to show the difference:

The Philokalia:

On Prayer: One Hundred and Fifty-Three Texts

79. Surely, when you do realize where you are, you will gladly sorrow and, like Isaiah, will reproach yourself because, being unclean, and dwelling in the midst of an unclean people - that is, of enemies - you dare to stand before the Lord of hosts (cf. Isa. 6:5).

80. If you pray truly, you will gain great assurance; angels will come to you as they came to Daniel, and they will illuminate you with knowledge of the inner essences of created things (cf. Dan. 2:19).

81. Know that the holy angels encourage us to pray and stand beside us, rejoicing and praying for us (cf. Tobit 12:12). Therefore, if we are negligent and admit thoughts from the enemy, we greatly provoke the angels. For while they struggle hard on our behalf we do not even take the trouble to pray to God for ourselves, but we despise their services to us and, abandoning their Lord and God, we consort with unclean demons.

82. Pray gently and calmly, sing with understanding and rhythm; then you will soar like a young eagle high in the heavens.

83. Psalmody calms the passions and curbs the uncontrolled impulses in the body; and prayer enables the intellect to activate its own energy.

84. Prayer is the energy which accords with the dignity of the intellect; it is the intellect's true and highest activity.

85. Psalmody appertains to the wisdom of the world of multi­plicity; prayer is the prelude to the immaterial knowledge of the One.

86. Spiritual knowledge has great beauty: it is the helpmate of prayer, awakening the noetic power of the intellect to contem­plation of divine knowledge.

87. If you have not yet received the gift of prayer or psalmody, persevere patiently and you will receive it.

88. 'And He spake a parable to them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to lose heart.' So do not lose heart and despair because you have not yet received the gift of prayer. You will receive it later. In the same parable we read: 'Though I do not fear God, or man's opinion, yet because this widow troubles me, I will vindicate her.' Similarly, God will speedily vindicate those who cry to Him day and night (cf. Luke 18:1-8). Take heart, then, and persevere diligently in holy prayer.

Introduction to the Science of Mental Health:

Page 1, Chapter 1:

If a science is defined as an organized body of knowledge of things through their causes (1), then the goal of any science of psychology must, by its very nature, be to arrive at the causes of mental health and illness. But this presupposes knowledge of the intellect itself as well as those faculties which may have some influence on the intellect. Moreover, it is apparent that modern psychology has not fully grasped the nature of the intellect itself since it has not been able to provide an accurate or complete definition of mental illness. Before any science engaged in an investigation of its proper object, it is necessary to know those things which constitute each science in general in order to be certain that one's science is engaging its object properly. In other words, one must know those things which are required for each science to be certain that the particular science under question fulfills the requirements necessary to comprise any valid science. . .

One of the fundamental misunderstandings of modern psychology relates to the material object. Since the Thomistic/realist understanding of man is that man is a composite of body and soul, we have reached our first fundamental difference with the way modern psychology views man. Modern psychology views man as nothing more than a physical or material thing. (16) However, since the faculties of man reside in the body and soul composite or in the soul alone, and since the intellect is one of these faculties, any valid psychology must recognize that its object of study is not merely material. Rather, man's intellect has three parts, two of which are immaterial and perform their functions independently of the body. Psychology has for its primary material object the intellect of man, for the science of mental health essentially studies the human intellect. but since the human intellect depends on other faculties for its knowledge and since other faculties can have a direct and indirect effect on the intellect, psychology studies secondarily those things and faculties of man which affect the human intellect. Some of those faculties are likewise immaterial (e.g. the will) and this must be kept in mind regarding the material object of psychology. It is because modern psychology has departed from its proper understanding of man's ontological constitution that it has not had much success in curing modern man's psychology illnesses.

The formal object is the point of view taken toward the material object and since psychology has as its primary concern mental health, then its point of view or ratio will be from the perspective of health. Therefore, in a secondary fashion, psychology will look at those faculties and things which affect the health of the intellect. This is what essentially separates it from epistemology, for epistemology studies the human intellect from the point of view of how it knows rather than from the point of view of its health. Moreover, psychology also differs from the philosophy of man insofar as it considers only a part of man, i.e. the intellect and those things which affect the intellect, as well as things outside of man which affect the intellect. (17)

Interior Causes, page. 273:

Per accidens mental illness which affects the memory can be healed in a few ways. The first way is that when a memory that disturbs the individual is recalled, the cogitative power can be moved by the possible intellect and will to disassociate in the memory the thing causing the trouble. Sometimes it is necessary for the possible intellect to make an act of judgement about the memory and with an act of will, reformulate the image or add to the image that which is curative of the thing remembered. Consequently, the memory will be re-stored and as a result, it will be cured. It may happen that one will have to perform this process repeatedly to habituate the various powers about the recalled memory as well as to habituate the memory itself regarding that specific memory. Conversely, one can cause damage to the memorative power by falsifying the sense species and moving the memory to store it in that fashion. Often when an experience is painful, people will remember it based upon the emotional pain involved rather than as it actually occured because through an act of judgement or from the cogitative power, the person alters the phantasm so as to be in congruity with the pain rather than keeping the species whole or as it is. Hence, someone can begin causing problems for himself merely by the way he approaches certain experiences and this can have an effect on memory.

[Bailey2]

My dear Shin,
I have to read this when I get back!  Off to another hockey tournament; out of town the long weekend.
(giggle)  Hockey is life.  Look out!     The iceman cometh!