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Saints' Discussion Forums  |  Forums  |  Catholic General Discussion  |  Topic: Free Will-Will God take it back? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Shin
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 03:22:56 PM »

But I will indurate his heart, and will multiply my signs and wonders in the Land of Ægypt, and he will not hear you: and I will put in my hand upon Ægypt, and will bring forth my army and people the children of Israel out of the Land of Ægypt, by very great judgments. And the Ægyptians shall know that I am the Lord, which have stretched forth my hand upon Ægypt, and have brought forth the children of Israel out of the midst of them.

Exodus 7:3-4 Original Douai

Indurate I read is another word for harden. Also, make callous, obdurate, unfeeling.

It does not seem to me that by making a man more stubborn God takes away the man's freedom. Freedom is in the will. Our emotions and tendencies are separate matters. They are separate parts of us. While we may have an extreme desire to do one thing or another, the will is still free to choose one thing or another. Cheesy

Certainly God knows what Pharaoh will do, all the more stubborn. But this hardly matters. God knows all our actions and this does not take away freedom of will. So too often enough we know what another person will do in response to something we do, but this does not take it away.
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Shin
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2012, 03:33:10 PM »

Later:

'And Pharao seeing that rest was given, hardened his own heart, and did not hear them, as the Lord had commanded.'

Exodus 8:15

The original Douai commentary suggests in its commentary, a removal of grace which otherwise might have prevented the stubbornness, which rather I think would come naturally to Pharao given he is an enemy of God. It cites St. Gregory: God is said to indurate by his justice, when he doth not mollify a reprobate heart. And St. Isidore: Sin is permitted for punishment of sin, when a sinner, for his dessert forsaken of God, goeth into another worse sin.

I seem to recall another saint saying that the worst punishment for sin is sin, i.e. to be permitted to go from one to another, and deeper and deeper into sins.
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'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus. (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)
pebbles
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 02:06:08 AM »

From what I learned, God did this to manifest his power.  That it is He who liberated Israel from captivity from the Egyptians and not by their own power or by any benevolence of any pharaohs. 

 Grin
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Shin
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 10:05:47 AM »

From what I learned, God did this to manifest his power.  That it is He who liberated Israel from captivity from the Egyptians and not by their own power or by any benevolence of any pharaohs. 

 Grin


I really like this idea pebbles!  Cheesy
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odhiambo
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 10:50:29 AM »

It does not seem to me that by making a man more stubborn God takes away the man's freedom. Freedom is in the will. Our emotions and tendencies are separate matters. They are separate parts of us. While we may have an extreme desire to do one thing or another, the will is still free to choose one thing or another. Cheesy

I understand, put this way. Thanks  Smiley
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