Roman Catholic v/s Coptic orthodox

[Patricia]

I have Egyptian neighbors who are Coptic orthodox and outwardly seem similar to Catholics except when I did some research on them. They have a different Pope, their priests are not celibate, their creed has a major flaw wherein they recite '"We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father" . For Catholics this is an error since we say "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,"

They do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. Their reasoning is that since Mary says " "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" she couldn't be immaculately conceived since she admitted she needs a saviour. I am stuck here. Can someone explain this to me. I believe there is a valid Catholic explanation to this since I believe Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception. Anyone with the answer to this?? 

[odhiambo]

If you read the Apostolic Constitution "Ineffabilis Deus," Dec. 8, 1854 of Pope Pius IX in which he Pope infallibly declared the dogma of the  immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, it will become very clear why, although Mary has no sin, Jesus is indeed her Saviour. I have not read it myself  but I have read quatations of the declaration from the net. Here it is:

"Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

Note : Mary’s immaculate conception is a grace and privilege granted by God in view of the merits of Jesus, the Saviour of the human race. It follows does it not that Jesus is indeed her Saviour as well.

[Patricia]

Mary’s immaculate conception is a grace and privilege granted by God in view of the merits of Jesus, the Saviour of the human race. It follows does it not that Jesus is indeed her Saviour as well.

True! Thanks, that helps Odhiambo!! 

[Shin]

Here's a link to the document.

Yes, it's simple isn't it? He is her Savior because He granted her the great grace and privilege of the Immaculate Conception. 

It's wonderful to read about Mary's life in the writings and revelations given to the saints, what a holy life she lived! How wonderful it is to aspire to in some small way imitate and follow the life of Our Lady!

[Patricia]

A simple yet awesome truth indeed! And I couldn't see it.    Thanks for the document Shin!

[pebbles]

Is Coptic Orthodox a break away from Greek Orthodox?

As far as I know with Orthodox that broke away from the Catholic Church, there are lots of similarities except for two things.

1.  For Catholics, the trinity is basically an equilateral triangle.  Therefore, 3 persons, one nature, all are equal.  With Orthodoxy, the trinity is the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit. To draw it would be the Father, then an arrow downwards to the Son, and then an arrow downwards to the Holy Spirit.

2.  They don't have a pope. Or maybe it is more correct to say that they don't acknowledge our pope as their pope.

[Poche]

I have Egyptian neighbors who are Coptic orthodox and outwardly seem similar to Catholics except when I did some research on them. They have a different Pope, their priests are not celibate, their creed has a major flaw wherein they recite '"We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father" . For Catholics this is an error since we say "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,"

They do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. Their reasoning is that since Mary says " "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" she couldn't be immaculately conceived since she admitted she needs a saviour. I am stuck here. Can someone explain this to me. I believe there is a valid Catholic explanation to this since I believe Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception. Anyone with the answer to this?? 

Celibacy for priests is adisciplinary issue. The issue of filioque is a semantic issue that will be resolved when they want to resolve it. When the angel greeted the Blessed Virgin he said, "Hail Mary, full of grace." the angel saying "full of grace" is areference to her immaculate conception. She would not be full of grace if she were not concieved immaculatly.

[Shin]

'Discipline' is such a transitory word, it is not really only discipline. And too the word discipline does not adequately address how deeply important and the many reasons the Church has celibacy. Even the word tradition, does not reflect how important it is before God, and how unchangeably from the beginning continence is required.

Perhaps Cardinal Stickler's writings on the subject might help a little with this. But what is truly helpful too is to read what St. Bridget's Revelations have on the subject.

So too the issue of the filoque appears semantic but it may be more than this I fear.

[Poche]

'Discipline' is such a transitory word, it is not really only discipline. And too the word discipline does not adequately address how deeply important and the many reasons the Church has celibacy. Even the word tradition, does not reflect how important it is before God, and how unchangeably from the beginning continence is required.

Perhaps Cardinal Stickler's writings on the subject might help a little with this. But what is truly helpful too is to read what St. Bridget's Revelations have on the subject.

So too the issue of the filoque appears semantic but it may be more than this I fear.

Some Eastern Catholic churches will ordain their priests if they are married with the proviso that if the wife dies the priest is not permited to remmary. When the people decide that they want to be Catholic, the filioque issue will go away.   

[pebbles]

The Roman Catholic Church has a way of choosing the next pope.  For the Coptic orthodox they select a boy to select a ball(?) with the candidates' names and whoever the boy chooses (not seeing the names of course) will be the next leader of the coptic orthodox.  I don't know if they also call their leader "pope".

[Benedict]

1.  For Catholics, the trinity is basically an equilateral triangle.  Therefore, 3 persons, one nature, all are equal.  With Orthodoxy, the trinity is the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit. To draw it would be the Father, then an arrow downwards to the Son, and then an arrow downwards to the Holy Spirit.

I just wanted to point out that this is incorrect: the Orthodox believe in the three co-equal person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. With the key difference being that they believe soundly in the monarchy of the Father where the Father is the sole principle of the Trinity, being that the Father is not from another, the Son begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit produced by the Father. This is given as testimony by Saint John of Damascus. It was Origen who wrongly believed in a Father who was greater than Son and Son who was greater than the Holy Spirit. The Greek Orthodox believe in the Seven Ecumenical counsels while the Oriental Orthodox believe in the the first four Ecumenical Counsels but denied the Counsel of Chalcedon because of misunderstanding of the word physis in Greek meaning nature so they are called Miaphysites because they believe in One Nature of Christ as opposed to the Chalcedonian Definition of Jesus's two unconfused and unmixed natures of perfect humanity, from Mary and perfect divinity from the Father.

their creed has a major flaw wherein they recite '"We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father" . For Catholics this is an error since we say "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,"

It is not a flaw, the Latins added the verse "God from God" and the verse "from the Son" into their version of the Creed when the original canons explicitly prohibited any additions or subtractions from the Creed.
Byzantine Catholics do not say "from the Son" and it is now optional to say even in the Latin Rite for the laity.
The Lord Jesus was not mistaken then He Himself said that the "Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father."

Catechism of the Catholic Church The Father and the Son revealed by the Spirit

243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of "another Paraclete" (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously "spoken through the prophets", the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them "into all the truth". The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.

244 The eternal origin of the Holy Spirit is revealed in his mission in time. The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father. The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father." By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity". But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son." The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified."

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447, even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.

248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son. The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason", for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle", is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds. This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.

The Blessed Virgin Mary, definitely was and is without original sin, but because they don't accept Papal Infalliblity or even any dogmatic statements of the Catholic Church the Orthodox have not correctly accept this truth dogmatically.

[Poche]

Is Coptic Orthodox a break away from Greek Orthodox?

As far as I know with Orthodox that broke away from the Catholic Church, there are lots of similarities except for two things.

1.  For Catholics, the trinity is basically an equilateral triangle.  Therefore, 3 persons, one nature, all are equal.  With Orthodoxy, the trinity is the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit. To draw it would be the Father, then an arrow downwards to the Son, and then an arrow downwards to the Holy Spirit.

2.  They don't have a pope. Or maybe it is more correct to say that they don't acknowledge our pope as their pope.

The Coptic Orthodox church is a break away from the Catholic Church at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. The issue at that time was heresy of Monophysiticism. part of the issue at the time was a greater self determination from the Roman Empire.