The 3 Levels of Reverence.

[odhiambo]

We all know in theory the three levels of Reverence, namely:

Latria: the reverence and worship we give to God alone.

Hyperdulia: the reverence we give to Mary as the greatest of Saints and Mother of God.

Dulia: the reverence we give to the Saints.
In practice, what is the difference?
We kneel and pray to God i.e the Our Father. Then the next minute we turn our attention from God to Our Lady when we say the Hail Mary, for instance, posture is the same. An observer would knot know whether we are praying to God, or to one of the saints.
This has been on my mind.

[Shin]

Well, there is naturally genuflection to Our Lord in the tabernacle on the altar.

Why would anyone know another one's prayers normally? If they are silent who can know another's thoughts? If they are vocal well then of course...

We are always finding God everywhere, and seeking Him everywhere.

But it is hard to outwardly express our love sufficiently, well hard, impossible really in the end.

[odhiambo]

My fear is that my prayer to God and my prayer to Our Lady, said one after the other, in the same prayer posture, does not, in my opinion, really address this importance in the degree of reverence due to God. It never bothered me before but now, of a sudden, I am uncomfortable especially when reciting prayers like the Holy Rosary and the 15 prayers where the Our Father is followed by the Hail Mary. I have now resorted to bowing when saying the Our Father. I realise it could just be the enemy at work here; sewing seeds of doubt where there is none.

[Shin]

Yes Odhiambo, I fear you are being overly scrupulous here. May the Lord console you!

For what little it's worth it seems to me like this..

When one prays to God, one is pleasing God. When one prays to Our Lady, one is pleasing God, and finding God through Our Lady. And so forth, God in the saints, God in Creation, God's work all pointing towards Him.

So I don't think about these distinctions of dulia, hyperdulia, etc. normally. Because one is always thinking of God.

Perhaps someone else has a better thought..

God keep you!  

[odhiambo]

Thank you Shin. God is the eventual recipient of all prayers, so all prayers are to Him.
I will try and put this behind me.

[Shin]

Well now, we can't give up loving Our Lady for the sake of those who err so. Those misunderstandings are rooted in Protestantism, they're not something we'd normally come to raised in a good Catholic culture.

There's nothing more beautiful than a good procession with the statues of the saints, and it spreads devotion. It's a true shame they're as rare as they are.

All the honor we give to the saints is truly honor to God.

It's simply since we can't give enough honor, the words and gestures sometimes are similar, because there are after all human limits to showing our love in this life. The Protestants are scandalized by the Eucharist too, but we do not stop genuflecting and showing that He is truly present.

Kneeling, bowing, all these things take place for all sorts of reasons, both before God and men. People who purposefully misunderstand are the ones who are in the wrong there, those who made up the lies in the first place about Catholics and idols, and those who perpetuated them without due investigation to learn their error.

We can't show enough love to God, Our Lady, and the saints, so it's no wonder the gestures and words are similar.

Why do we call priests father, when Our Lord said, call no man father? It is the same sort of thing -- The Father is the true Father, and we find Him in our earthly fathers. Jesus is the Life, and we find His life through Our Lady and the saints, and so the language we use is the appropriate language of those who love God.

'But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren. And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.'

Matthew 23:8-10

Yet later on the words fathers and similar are still used. . .

'An ancient man rebuke not, but entreat him as a father: young men, as brethren'

1 Tim. 5:1

There is a deeper meaning when this sort of thing is said, 'call no man Father', 'Jesus is the life'. We find Jesus in those we meet each day. So this sort of verse is an instruction to do that -- find the source of fatherhood, find the source of life, in the people we encounter, do not attribute it to them and stop short.

The Protestants who are anti-statue, and I think they're rarer than one might think, they simply have a lot of anti-Catholic literature about that rather than even themselves not having statues, neglect to read the portions of Holy Scripture were God commands statues to be made.

And we have Catholic history where Catholic culture is preserved and Our Lord even commands statues to be made at various places and shows miracles through them.

It can take a bit of time to adjust as a convert, or when first confronted with these ideas, but we can't let them stop us or take hold and get between us and showing love.

[susanna]

Thanks Shin.   

[Shin]

Hope I didn't talk too much Susanna!

It can be hard to adjust one's feelings!

[odhiambo]

Spoken, that would have been quite a speech, deserving of a thunderous applause.
Thank you. I will be referring to it from time to time.

[odhiambo]

"Why do we call priests father, when Our Lord said, call no man father? "

“I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”
1 Cor 4: 14-15

[Shin]

"Why do we call priests father, when Our Lord said, call no man father? "

“I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”
1 Cor 4: 14-15

Oh, thank you odhiambo, that is truly a splendid quote to find.

[susanna]

Shin, could you delete my posts #5, and this last one?

I feel like I should be wearing a big scarlet U for ungrateful to Mary. 
Thanks. 

 

[Shin]

Oh that's alright Susanna, sometimes all sorts of stuff comes to our heads.

Still, iff you wish, well, there it goes!

[susanna]

I was thinking of the Hail Holy Queen prayer this morning-

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our Life, our sweetness and our hope.....

It's all in how you say it.  --- 
Hail holy queen, Mother of Mercy,
(mother of) our Life
(of) our Sweetness
and (of) our Hope. 

What do you think? 

 

Ever read things wrong?  Took me half my life to realize that in the Christmas carol Hark the Herald, that there was not some thing called a herald that someone harked. 
That there were actually herald angels.   

[odhiambo]

I was thinking of the Hail Holy Queen prayer this morning-

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our Life, our sweetness and our hope.....

It's all in how you say it.  --- 
Hail holy queen, Mother of Mercy,
(mother of) our Life
(of) our Sweetness
and (of) our Hope. 

What do you think? 

 

Ever read things wrong?  Took me half my life to realize that in the Christmas carol Hark the Herald, that there was not some thing called a herald that someone harked. 
That there were actually herald angels.   

Hi Susanna.
In the prayer " Hail Holy Queen", the line
" Our life, our sweetness and our hope" is actually referring to the BVM.
Giving her these titles does not take away from the fact that
Jesus is the ultimate Life, Sweetness and Hope.
I found an explanation on line. It is rather long but if it helps us understand better, then the length
 should not matter.
Will post it separately.

[odhiambo]

Shin, you are free to delete this if it is against forum rules

Here is an excerpt from a site called Catholic Lane

"Recently, a friend posed the following question to me:  Why do we call Mary our life, our sweetness and our hope?
  To answer this question, I turned to one of the doctors of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori, who wrote an explanation of the Salve Regina in his monumental work The Glories of Mary. [1]  St. Alphonsus identifies two reasons as to why Mary is our life.

  Mary is our life because she obtains for us the pardon of our sins and because she obtains for us perseverance.  Mary is our sweetness because she renders death sweet to her clients.  And lastly, Mary is the hope of all, including sinners.
  These three attributes accorded to Mary in the Salve Regina are best summarized by the Hail Mary.
At the conclusion of the Hail Mary, one prays:

 Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
 In the Hail Mary we ask Mary to be our life, our sweetness and our hope, because we ask for her continual intercession.
 Mary becomes our life when we ask her to pray for us, because through Mary, grace is given to the devotee and thus to the entire world. [2]  
When a Christian lacks devotion to the Mother of God, St. Alphonsus notes the soul “is immediately enveloped in darkness.” [3] .........
When praying the Hail Mary, the devotee keeps death before his or her eyes.  We are able to call Mary our sweetness because we have confidence in that prayer, “pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”  St. Alphonsus recounts stories of individuals who, at their death, experienced great temptation which could have resulted in the loss of grace at the hour of death, however, each time, the soul was able to persevere and taste the sweetness of death because of Mary’s intercession at their final moments.  Sweetness of death is granted to the devotee because a person’s confidence in their prayer to Mary.  Mary will take the soul of her dying servant to its eternal destiny because of his or her faithfulness.  This notion is supported by other private revelations in which certain promises were entrusted to certain visionaries. [4]  Through devotion to and the intercession of the Mother of God, the faithful who honor Mary are granted the grace of tasting the sweetness of death and by the grace of God will remain faithful until their last breath, even amid spiritual warfare.
In the third salutation, hope, we find that Mary provides hope for the Christian who honors her because of her role as a dispenser of grace contained within her identity as a spiritual mother.  Since Mary was a human being, (albeit immaculately conceived), Mary gives the ordinary Christian a goal to strive toward in life.  Mary becomes a model on which the Christian can model his or her life by emulating the virtues of Mary. [5]  Lastly, the prayer of Mary aids in the conversion of sinners [6] because she is the refuge of sinners—their only hope and advocate [7] outside of Christ.  By praying for and obtaining the conversion of sinners, a sinner is then afforded the hope of eternal life rather than eternal damnation.

Conclusion
St. Bernard of Clairvaux in his homily, In Praise of the Virgin Mother, provides an exhortation to the members of his monastic community to call upon Mary in the time of their sin.  That passage best summarizes why it is appropriate and fitting for us to call Mary our life, our sweetness and our hope. Bernard writes:

If you do not want to founder in the tempest, do not avert your eyes from the brightness of this star [Mary].  When the wind of temptation blows up within you, when you strike upon the rock of tribulation, gaze up at this star, call out to Mary.  Whether you are being tossed about by the waves of pride or ambition or slander or jealousy, gaze up at this star, call out to Mary......  

In the Christian life, temptation will come, but if one turns to Mary, one will not go astray, for she will help the sinner.  She is the ‘Star of the Sea’ who guides the Christian on his or her pilgrimage to the Heavenly Jerusalem in spite of life’s trials and tribulations.  Because she is the trusted pedagogue, she leads the Christian to life by her intercession and dispersal of grace; she is the Christian’s sweetness because by her continual intercession she can help the devotee in his or her final hours; and she is the hope of Christians because by turning to her Christians are able to remain faithful to Christ.  Mary is the antidote to temptation in whom one finds hope of perseverance in the state of grace until the end. [9]
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  His Mother, who was chosen by the Eternal Father to be the mother of His Son, was granted certain privileges in her life which allowed her to become the mother of all the living.  The privileges granted to Mary allow her to rightly be called our life, our sweetness and our hope.

  By means of Mary, the Life, par excellence, was brought into the world, allowing all Christians the opportunity to participate in the Divine Life offered by God.  Mary is an instrument who leads Christians to the one who is the source of all Life—Jesus; Mary also leads Christians to the sweetness of unity with her Son, and finally, Christians are able to find their ultimate hope fulfilled in Jesus Christ; all is possible through the mediation of Mary.  As the celestial moon, Mary reflects Christ, bringing all Christians to the source of all life, sweetness, and hope—He who is the Sun, Jesus Christ."