Fraternal Correction

[Therese]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

How are you at admonishing the sinner?  Do you find it difficult to give fraternal correction when the person involved is an adult and should already know the gravity of his own sins?  Is fraternal correction in that case required? 

Isn't it a sin of omission not to point out to another a sin he is committing when you feel God has given you an opportunity to speak up? There is a passage in Ezekiel that points out that the sinner's blood will be on you if you do not admonish him.  This has always stuck with me.  Some people say we are not required to correct sinners and that they ultimately are responsible for themselves, but doesn't charity call us (or require us) to admonish them when the possibility of doing so arises?

If these individuals are adults and are fallen away Catholics with darkened intellects sometimes they will just rebel and get very angry with you for correcting them in their sins...and your relationship with them will be possibly permanently damaged and you could never have any chance of converting them in the future by your example because at that point you have lost them.  Sometimes you just know a person is of the type that just doesn't want to hear any fraternal correction and would just get very angry with you for saying something...so you fear saying anything.  In those cases is your fear sinful or a sign of wisdom because it is a sign that you know it is not okay not to speak for fear of causing the individual to get harder in heart and might cause him to end a good relationship with you that could help him repent in the future?  What about when that individual is receiving communion and is set in a web of unorthodox views?  Fr. Corapi says that these individuals excommunicate themselves automatically by holding these views.  Would talking to that person be most proper or would intense prayer be more what is called for?  It's hard to speak a person to conversion when we are dealing with personally held views that contradict Church teaching.

Thanks for any input!
 

[Brigid]

I do think we need to give them our beliefs about what they are doing, while remembering the dignity and respect that we owe to all humans. If we can tell them our beliefs and also give them respect and love (supporting our statements in either Catholic ways - with Tradition, Scripture and Magisterial teaching or through only Scripture if a protestant) then I think we can still keep at least a small part of a relationship, allowing our/'His through us' teaching from modeling. I also believe that prayer is always needed and sometimes the only way around certain situations, too.

[Shin]

This is a difficult subject and what you've stated has all come to my mind too.. .

My general view is that the opposition of course, is both their own pride, pleasurable attachment to the sin, and the devil at work.. and so. . conquering these takes humility and prayer.. without your prayer there is not success in these situations often enough.. unless Providence is taking a special hand..

So the more prayer there is for it the better.. you gain the spiritual weight to overcome the mountains placed in the way..

If you're in a good state and you've thought ahead how to be peaceful and undisturbed inside.. no matter how upset the other person gets.. you're well armed.. sometimes you have to get a little angry but you have to be careful about that.. some things deserve to be shown how terrible they truly are with such emotions.. but you have to be careful.

You do have to speak out on some level.. whether it's little by little or big step by big step.. It is something we are held responsible for.. Speaking out doesn't mean we expect change.. but does put the truth out there.. so they have something to think about.. that God can remind them about..

I wish I could put this all better than I have. It feels so insufficient.

[Therese]

Thanks, Brigid and Shin.

Don't worry, Shin; you put things very well.  I understand perfectly what you are saying.

I spoke with a CA apologist who told me it is all a very delicate matter and in certain cases it would be best for me to withold correction for the time being (in the case where I thought the correction would do more harm than good).  We agreed I should teach by example and await a good opportunity in the future when the Holy Spirit makes a fraternal correction possible.  I was happy with his answer because I know some very difficult people to fraternally correct of certain sins and I feel that correction out of the blue at this time would abruptly end or seriously damage our relationship. Until a good opportunity arises for me to say something fitting to those individuals I think I should await the opportunity to speak, witholding any correction while praying for them.  I was told to teach by example and to trust my judgement...and to wait for the Holy Spirit to give me an opportunity to speak.  That makes sense to me.

[Brigid]

What you say sounds wise. There are plenty of situations (especially in the present culture or where family is involved) where "prudence is the better part of valor". Prayer can always be done, though. I liked, too, what St. Teresa said in her 2nd chapter of Interior Castle (#21 I think) about people being very careful of their real motives for fraternal correction. I know I really, really need to watch that!

[Shin]

The devil always has a lot invested in making sure the people do not give up these sins, and is willing to make them get very angry and passionate and stirred up about giving them up -- in other words, the sin lets the devils in, and then because these people are spiritual undiscerning, the devil in opposition to good advice will make them explode to be told not to do it.

I also heard that the generational sin, or spirit of the 60's generation was one of opposition to authority -- in other words, no one can tell them what to do. It doesn't matter what it is, or even perhaps if they actually want it -- tell them to do it, no way. And there's an actual major spirit of evil involved in that..

Each generation has its particular vices as well as its particular virtues..

Wise as serpents innocent as doves.. but we must not be too circumspect..

I don't let people think I approve of what they are doing passively.. I just let the issue be unresolved for a time, however uncomfortable that is for me.. and I often wonder if I shouldn't be more straightforwards and let the chips fall where they may. I feel a saint would overcome the matters more swiftly and immediately..

What to do, what to do..

Personal holiness is very key..

If you can't help someone to change.. Look to yourself and your mortifications and prayer..  It's said that no one could encounter St. Catherine of Siena without becoming much the better for it.. Not every saint had immediate success with every sinner they encountered by far however.. many had years of lack of it.. But.. personal holiness.. within it is the key towards overcoming every situation..

Prayer works wonders. The Green Scapular.. the Miraculous Medal... When I look at my spiritual poverty.. I can look to the promises of God.. and rely on these the more.. And no matter how great a sinner we are.. Even when we are the worst of sinners.. when we are praying for something we know God wants.. miracles can happen..

And God wants the conversion of every sinner. For certain! The angels and all Heaven rejoice with each faithful Catholic!

[Therese]

Yes, Brigid, prudence is called for...especially where a family member is involved.  With friends who get furious by an admonishment and let out relationship pretty much come to an end I haven't a problem (that has already happened)...but with an older brother who might react very negatively I find must be highly prudent and await any opportunity for correction in the future.  I don't like not being able to say something right now to some persons, but I feel I must await an opportunity to speak up.  But I must never do anything to encourage bad behaviors by laughing or smiling at that person when they are speaking of their sins.  I'll let my example (my response) be an admonishment.

Yes, Shin, I agree with what you are saying also.

[Therese]

St. Teresa of Avila in the book The Way of Perfection speaks of a love that is perfectly spiritual (not mixed with the sensual).  A person with this love could not help but point out to another person in sin his or her sins for love of God and the other person.  I want to do this for souls I know who are in sin, but I don't know how to approach them out of the blue.  Should I just call them on the phone and start telling them I love them and am concerned for their souls because their souls are in danger if they continue to do or believe whatever they are doing or believing that is contrary to the faith?  I know some (or most) of these individuals might think I am being a fanatic and won't respond well (I've tried correcting some of them in the past), but my love for them is truly spiritual and I do want to speak up for the sake of their souls.  Any advice?

[Patricia]

Therese, I try to do it at the best opportunity I can pounce on and try to do it in the most gentle way possible, but the reaction I get tells me whether I can persist with this person or just stop and rely only on prayer.
There is a family member who is involved with this 'Charismatic prayer group' and is impressed by the preacher who performs big miracles. She was healed by this preacher and now seems to be moving away from all good Catholic practices. I thought it was my duty to warn her about it when she excitedly told me about this prayer group. But she seems obsessed and comes back with counter-arguments against the Faith, so I just gave up and now will pray for her, no more arguing.
Once I met a lady at my son's soccer practice who was an ex-Catholic. She told me she used to be Catholic, but was never satisfied in Church and so is now with a non-denominational church (whatever that means). I told her directly and in a gentle way that the Catholic church is the only means to salvation and would she ever consider coming back? She quickly changed topics and I realised I was not getting anywhere.
I'm really not sure if it helps at all to tell people as I did or should I just rely on prayer? I've not had any success to date with anyone.
I have a sweet old Protestant neighbor who helps me out a lot. She was having a family issue the other day and was worried to death about it. I gave her a St. Philomena novena card to pray  and she happily accepted it. So really, it depends on the kind of response you get. Lets hope St. Philomena helps her out!!

[Therese]

Dear Patricia and friends,

I contacted a priest friend of mine about my two adult godchildren whom I never see (one of them just for Christmas) who aren't fully initiated into the Church, aren't practicing their faith, and are worldly; I told him I wanted to email them about my concern for their souls being in danger, and I also said I wanted to send them a book that would jolt them to want to start looking into their faith.  I told him I already contacted one of them a while back and thought I had voiced my fear for this godchild's soul in the email.  My godchild didn't respond to the email I sent him.

My priest friend believes I should pray deeply for my godchildren, fast for them, let God do his work in them and let myself be a "victim soul" for them instead of trying to jolt them into the faith.  I honestly don't think anything I could say to them would be as effective as praying and fasting for them as a "victim soul" and letting God do his work in their lives.  I rarely ever see them and have no way of influening them outside of prayer and fasting or emailing or writing to them about my concern.  To email or to write to them and tell them I am fearful for their souls is something I'm not sure I should really do.  Would you write to them about your concern or would you choose the other route and be a "victim soul" for them? or would you do both?

I have people in my family (my father and brothers and sisters) that I'd like to fraternally correct, but I don't think they'll be moved to conversion by what I say like they would if they received the graces from my praying deeply for them and fasting for them.  Some people, judging from my past history with them, don't seem to want to hear any correction and are so set in their ways and lifestyles that my prayers for them and fasting for their conversion seems the most powerful way to help save their souls.  I want to approach my sister about something involving her Catholic faith, and will try to, as she seems a little open to correction, but I must pray and fast beforehand for I fear her views run very deep.  I don't think her beliefs will probably change, but at least she'll have a gentle reminder that they should be changed.  Maybe that knowledge will help her down the road.

[Brigid]

Therese,

I don't feel that in this society (highly Protestant and/or pagan) that approaching someone in error seems to do anything except putting them on the defensive (unless they ask you something about your faith first, that is). What led me to Christianity was another's example, then asking her - before which she didn't say much about her faith. My own conversion from Protestantism was through the Rosary (and hearing some very pointed radio apologetics along with my own research). My choosing to listen and learn was a grace from Him through His Mother's Rosary - not from someone saying anything, until I had asked. Study, praying and fasting - with a Christian example of Joy and Peace, seem to me to be the best way to go about evangelizing right now. My family is all Protestant (at best ), so I've really come face-to-face with this a lot.

[Therese]

Thank you, Brigid.  You and my priest friend are wise and I am convinced you are right.

[MidnightSun12]

I don't let people think I approve of what they are doing passively.. I just let the issue be unresolved for a time, however uncomfortable that is for me.. and I often wonder if I shouldn't be more straightforwards and let the chips fall where they may. I feel a saint would overcome the matters more swiftly and immediately..

Shin, this is an issue that I definitely struggle with, as well.

I have watched many of Michael Voris' talks and he is a big fan of letting the chips fall as they may and emphasizing that our society is way too concerned about how people feel.  Intuitively, I absolutely agree with him, that helping a soul get to heaven is much more important then staying on good terms with a friend, keeping the peace, or even keeping our jobs.  Putting this into practice, however, is very difficult for me and I often find myself paralyzed with fear and missing opportunities.

When I think about the authority that men like St. Leonard of Port Maurice spoke with, it definitely seems clear to me that when we are preaching the Truth, our concern for "hurt feelings" is generally an obstacle to virtue that needs to be overcome.  Overcoming that obstacle, though, is definitely a hurdle and I am curious if you (or anybody else here) have made any progress in that regard.  

Boy oh boy, the path to holiness sure is a thorny one!

[Shin]

Well, I was thinking about this issue just the other day.

Some church related topics came up and I was discussing it with a close relative of mine, and as I was speaking I was rather disassociated from myself in horror at how I couldn't keep the slightly irritated tone out of my voice when I was talking about it. I was definitely not speaking about it in the tone I wanted to speak about it, but I couldn't stop the irritation, and I felt to myself, the devils are at work they're keeping me stirred up about it due to bad habit, I can't emotionally respond properly to this person, my irritation is going to get in the way of my words.

I felt at that moment that you see, I should say some things, but at the same time it was impossible for me to say them the right way, I felt quite caught. Words delivered with irritation would spoil the words.

So I feel I should'ved prayed more before hand in the day, in general, and now I need to be more prepared with prayer and thinking ahead of how to emotionally react properly in this case.

This was face to face -- online it's easier, but I've still had a bad tendency to just state the facts as they are, and not try more to hmm, relate to the person, where that person is at the current time, thoughts and emotions. It's important to do this without harming the truth -- but the goal when talking to the person is to help the person -- that is the first priority. When talking in public that priority very much tends to get set aside towards a more general for everyone way of speaking, but this too can be a problem and bad example, if you aren't treating the person as a Christian should with the proper respect and virtue in conversation.

So it is a difficult matter for me still, just some thoughts, for what little they are worth.

[Shin]

For what it's worth, mortifying myself in correcting something has been quite helpful for me in general, to do it more correctly, I think.

We have to practice temperance with all things. There can be a self indulgence in these things.

[Shin]

I don't let people think I approve of what they are doing passively.. I just let the issue be unresolved for a time, however uncomfortable that is for me.. and I often wonder if I shouldn't be more straightforwards and let the chips fall where they may. I feel a saint would overcome the matters more swiftly and immediately..

Shin, this is an issue that I definitely struggle with, as well.

I have watched many of Michael Voris' talks and he is a big fan of letting the chips fall as they may and emphasizing that our society is way too concerned about how people feel.  Intuitively, I absolutely agree with him, that helping a soul get to heaven is much more important then staying on good terms with a friend, keeping the peace, or even keeping our jobs.  Putting this into practice, however, is very difficult for me and I often find myself paralyzed with fear and missing opportunities.

When I think about the authority that men like St. Leonard of Port Maurice spoke with, it definitely seems clear to me that when we are preaching the Truth, our concern for "hurt feelings" is generally an obstacle to virtue that needs to be overcome.  Overcoming that obstacle, though, is definitely a hurdle and I am curious if you (or anybody else here) have made any progress in that regard.  

Boy oh boy, the path to holiness sure is a thorny one!

Well, you see, I understand where you're getting at with the paralyzed with fear and missed opportunities, I know how that feels.

Keeping -my- emotions under the proper control when speaking can be quite difficult, or rather trying to think about how to speak virtuously with the love of God rather than simply, objectively and flatly which has been a retreat for me, stating just the facts. That's not so bad at times, can be better than other ways, simply delivering the correct information calmly -- but still, I wish to go further than that and put the love of God in the words, speak more virtuously.

I have a habit of often considering the opposite side of the coin. If someone tells me something I think, "What if the opposite were true?" And turn it on its head. If there's a majority thinking something I wonder, what if the forgotten view is right? It has done me quite some good this..

But intemperately made use of it and especially spoken of immediately can come out badly as making me a contradictory person as someone states something which is good in its way, then I see something turning it upside down, and state that rather than agreeing with the good that the person said.. Well, hardly sociable eh?

Boy oh boy, the path to holiness sure is a thorny one!