Communism and Fatima

[Shin]

“What Our Lady wants is that the Pope and all the bishops in the world shall consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart on one special day. If this is done, she will convert Russia and there will be peace. If it is not done, the errors of Russia will spread through every country in the world.”

“Does this mean,” Walsh then asked, “in your opinion, that every country, without exception, will be overcome by Communism?” And Sister Lucia answered: “Yes.”

[eschator83]

May we all pray fervently for freedom and the conversion of communists and other tyrants, especially tomorrow in celebration of our freedom.

[curious]

On the Roman Catholic Church between Doctrine; dogma and actions;...query why did the vactian not publicaky endorse the LAdy of Fatima doctrine to pray for the spirtual conversion of Russia 1920-1940?

The Vatican did not initially publicly endorse Our Lady of Fatima's call for the spiritual conversion of Russia between 1920 and 1940 because the message was considered a private revelation, not an infallible dogma, and the context of the request involved potentially sensitive geopolitical issues with the newly formed Soviet Union, which the papacy sought to avoid overtly antagonizing. The Church's approval of the Fatima apparitions meant they were deemed appropriate for belief but not required, and the implications of the requested consecration of Russia were complex, requiring careful handling by Church authorities.
Understanding Private Revelation
Not Doctrine or Dogma:
The messages from Fatima are considered a private revelation, a message God gives to individuals for guidance in human acts, but not for the declaration of new doctrine.
Tested for Authenticity:
For a private revelation to be approved by the Church, it must be consistent with public revelation (the deposit of faith) and have a local bishop's investigation into its supernatural authenticity.
Geopolitical Context (1920-1940)
Emergence of the Soviet Union:
The early 20th century saw the rise of the Soviet Union, a state hostile to religion and the Catholic Church.
Church Neutrality:
The Church, particularly under Popes like Pius XI (who served during the 1920s and 1930s), aimed to maintain a degree of neutrality to facilitate its work of ministering to Catholics, including those within the Soviet Union, and to avoid overtly provoking the Soviet government.
Avoiding Conflict:
Directly endorsing a request tied to a specific nation like Russia could have been perceived as an act of political interference, potentially leading to further persecution of the Church and its followers.
The Church's Evolving Response
Slow Adoption: The process of accepting and acting on the message of Fatima was gradual.
Later Consecrations: Later Popes, notably Pope John Paul II, did perform consecrations of the world or Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, demonstrating the Church's evolving understanding and response to the prophetic messages.

The Vatican did not publicly endorse the Lady of Fatima's specific request for Russia's consecration between 1920 and 1940 for a combination of diplomatic, procedural, and theological reasons. Fatima's message is classified as a "private revelation," which does not require belief from the faithful, and the Church must exercise caution before acting on it.
Diplomatic sensitivities
The request for Russia's conversion was made against a complex and sensitive geopolitical backdrop.
Fear of angering the Russian Orthodox Church: A public act by the Roman Catholic Church to consecrate Russia specifically could have been seen as a provocative attempt to subordinate the Orthodox Church, which separated from Rome in 1054.
Risk of provoking the Soviet government: In the decades following the 1917 Communist Revolution, the Soviet government aggressively persecuted Christians and other religious groups. A public consecration of the nation by the pope could have triggered more intense crackdowns on Russian Catholics and other Christians.
Vatican diplomacy: Throughout the 20th century, the Vatican engaged in delicatediplomatic efforts to safeguard the rights of Christians in Soviet-controlled areas. A public consecration could have jeopardized these efforts, leading the Soviet regime to view the Vatican with greater suspicion.
Internal Church protocol and deliberation
The Vatican proceeded with caution, following a process of investigation and discerning the validity of the messages.
Investigation and approval: A Marian apparition is not officially approved at the moment it is reported. The local bishop first opened a canonical inquiry in 1922, declaring the apparitions "worthy of belief" only in 1930.
Private revelation: The messages of Fatima are considered private revelations, which are distinct from the foundational deposit of faith (public Revelation). While a pope can promote belief in a private revelation, Catholics are not obligated to believe it. The Vatican had to determine the appropriate timing and manner to incorporate elements of a private revelation into public actions.
Lack of direct command: The request for the consecration was delivered by Sister Lúcia dos Santos, the sole surviving visionary, in 1929 and was relayed to Church authorities. The Vatican did not have a direct command but rather had to act on the testimony of one individual.
Ambiguity and uncertainty in the message
At the time, the full scope of the messages was not yet public, and their interpretation was unclear.
The "Third Secret": One of the most significant parts of the Fatima message was not written down until 1944 and was kept secret by the Vatican for many years. The full message was not available for public discussion or understanding.
The nature of "conversion": Church leaders considered whether "conversion of Russia" meant conversion to the Catholic faith or a more general return to Christian values, which would be less offensive to the Orthodox Church.
Specifics of the consecration: The request specified that the pope must consecrate Russia in union with all the bishops of the world. This was an unprecedented action that required immense coordination and presented a logistical challenge for the Church in that era. The Vatican proceeded cautiously, performing similar consecrations of "the world" in later decades rather than the explicit consecration of Russia requested by the Fatima vision

During the period of 1920–1940, the Vatican's diplomatic efforts concerning the Soviet Union were complex and multi-faceted, defined by a shift from attempted dialogue to open condemnation. These efforts were conducted against the backdrop of intense Soviet anti-religious persecution and were pursued with the primary goal of protecting the Catholic faithful and the institution of the Church itself, rather than acting on a private religious message like Fatima.
The path of dialogue (1920–1927)
Following the Bolshevik Revolution, the Vatican initially pursued a policy of cautious engagement, hoping to secure some form of religious freedom.
Pope Benedict XV (1914–1922): The first Vatican engagement began with a humanitarian mission. In 1921, facing a terrible famine in Russia, Pope Benedict XV organized relief efforts. He initiated talks with Lenin's government, but these discussions failed to secure meaningful religious concessions and mainly served the Soviet goal of obtaining international legitimacy.
Pope Pius XI (1922–1939):
The Genoa Conference (1922): The Vatican offered the Soviet government diplomatic recognition in exchange for religious freedom for all confessions in Russia. However, Soviet Foreign Minister Georgi Chicherin used these talks to advance Soviet recognition by other powers, and Moscow only permitted the Vatican's famine relief mission, explicitly forbidding any evangelization.
Secret negotiations (1925–1927): Under Pius XI, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) began secret negotiations to find a diplomatic arrangement. The talks were a failure, as the Soviets refused to accept core Vatican demands, such as the right to appoint bishops and conduct religious education.
Controversial missions: Pius XI, through his advisor Father Michel d'Herbigny, sent clandestine missions into the USSR to secretly consecrate bishops. While initially appearing successful, the secrecy of the missions was soon compromised, and the bishops who were consecrated were later sent to gulags or killed.
The path of open condemnation (1927–1940)
The failure of early diplomatic efforts and the intensification of religious persecution under Stalin forced a strategic shift.
Discontinuation of dialogue (1927): After the secret negotiations failed to produce results and became dangerous to the Church, Pius XI formally ended them. The Soviet government had proven unreliable and interested only in exploiting the Vatican for its own political ends.
Heightened Soviet persecution (late 1920s and 1930s): Under Stalin, religious persecution reached unprecedented levels. Churches were closed and destroyed, religious publications were banned, and a vast number of clergy and religious laypeople were arrested, exiled, or executed. This climate of terror made overt diplomatic appeals futile and dangerous.
Public denunciation:
Encyclical Miserentissimus Redemptor (1928): In this encyclical, Pope Pius XI openly called for public prayers and acts of reparation for the persecuted Church in Russia.
Encyclical Divini Redemptoris (1937): This encyclical offered the most forceful public condemnation, defining communism as "intrinsically evil" and a "veritable scourge of mankind". This unequivocal public stance left little room for the kind of subtle diplomatic maneuvering required for a specific act like the consecration of Russia.
Relationship with the Fatima message
The Vatican's diplomatic stance directly impacted its response to the Fatima message.
Failure of Ostpolitik: The repeated failures of the Vatican's early "Ostpolitik" (its policy toward the East) demonstrated that direct engagement was counterproductive and endangered the faithful. This made the risk of a high-profile, and specifically anti-Soviet, public act like the consecration of Russia politically reckless.
Shift from diplomatic plea to theological rebuke: The public shift from attempted dialogue to open condemnation of communism in encyclicals like Divini Redemptoris was a more pressing and appropriate use of the Pope's public platform during this period. The Vatican's primary public message was a doctrinal one, condemning the ideology, rather than a political one, calling for a specific prayer action requested through private revelation.
Protecting Catholics under threat: A public consecration of Russia would have confirmed to Soviet authorities that the Vatican was explicitly aligned against the regime and could have provoked a fresh wave of violence against Russian Catholics and the Byzantine-rite Eastern Catholic Churches that were united with Rome.

[curious]

Sadly with the exception of Russian  Roman Catholics the message of Fatima ....
Yes, Russian Roman Catholics have responded to the message of Fatima, primarily through the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which was requested in the Our Lady of Fatima apparitions in 1917. Responses and interpretations of this message have varied, but the consecration act itself, particularly by Pope John Paul II in 1984 and Pope Francis in 2022 (in the context of the invasion of Ukraine), have been noted in relation to the message's directives. The specific interpretations and sincerity of these consecrations have been a subject of ongoing discussion and controversy, but the message has significantly influenced the spiritual landscape for Roman Catholics in Russia and globally.
The Context of the Message
The apparitions:
Ongoing controversy over fulfillment:
Some interpretations argue that the consecration of Russia has not been performed according to the Virgin Mary's exact instructions.
Papal consecrations:
Pope John Paul II (1984): He performed a consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Pope Francis (2022): In March 2022, in response to the invasion of Ukraine, he publicly consecrated Russia and Ukraine to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Varying perspectives:
While some, like Sister Lucia (the last surviving visionary), believed these consecrations fulfilled the request, others have argued that they were not performed correctly or specifically enough.
Impact on Russian Catholicism:
The message of Fatima and its associated consecrations have served as a significant spiritual and devotional point for Russian Roman Catholics. The call for conversion and peace resonates deeply with the challenges and historical experiences of the Catholic Church in Russia.

.Responses to the Fatima message among Russian Roman Catholics have been positive, though it is a complex issue due to the small size of the Catholic community in Russia and sensitivities with the much larger Russian Orthodox Church. Many Roman Catholics see the message as a hopeful sign, while Russian Orthodox leaders often view it with suspicion.
Response from Russian Roman Catholics
The small Roman Catholic community in Russia has generally welcomed the Fatima message, though their response is naturally more subdued than their Western counterparts.
Pilgrimages and devotion: In 1992, Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz, then the Apostolic Administrator for European Russia, presided over a public crowning of a statue of Our Lady of Fatima in front of the Kremlin. He later spoke emotionally about his absolute faith in Mary's promise for the conversion of Russia. In 2020, a project was announced to build a Shrine of the Mother of God of Fatima in St. Petersburg to serve the Russian Byzantine Catholic community.
Hopes for reconciliation: As far back as 1946, Sister Lúcia, one of the Fatima visionaries, told a young Russian girl that the conversion of Russia would happen through the Eastern Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite," implying a reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholic churches. This vision of a "conversion of the heart" that leads to Christian unity is a source of hope for some Russian Catholics.
Challenges to practice: Russia's Catholic community is small, and many Russians still identify with the Orthodox Church. A 2022 article notes that most Russians "do not want to be converted by Fatima" because they reject the narrative as Catholic and see no need for conversion since Russia has a long Christian history. This reality likely affects the scope and visibility of the Fatima message in Russia.
Response from the Russian Orthodox Church
The message of Fatima has been a source of suspicion and rejection from the Russian Orthodox Church and its leadership.
Rejection as Catholic-centric: Orthodox officials tend to view the Fatima apparitions as a Catholic-only event and an attempt to expand Catholic influence into traditionally Orthodox territory. They reject the premise that Russia needs to be "converted," asserting that the country has been Christian for over a thousand years.
Criticism of perceived idolatry: Some Orthodox figures reject Fatima as part of a sequence of Marian revelations that they believe elevate the Virgin Mary to a status nearing equality with God, which they see as a distortion of the faith.
Silence and resentment: The official stance of the Russian Orthodox Church is described as "ominous silence" and even resentment toward the Fatima message, rather than embracing it as a divine intervention.
Broader ecumenical considerations
The differences in how the Fatima message is received highlight the deep theological and historical divisions between the two churches. The consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, called for in the Fatima message and performed by popes, remains a point of contention and a source of ecumenical tension




In 1917, during the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Fátima, Portugal, the visionaries were given a message that included a request for Russia to be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
The prophecy:
.
The message stated that if the request was heeded, Russia would be converted, and world peace would follow; if not, Russia would spread its "errors" throughout the world.
Responses and Interpretations





The Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) does not officially accept the Message of Fatima, viewing its doctrines as foreign and potentially idolatrous, though individual Russian Orthodox Christians may engage with the message or apparitions. The ROC believes the message is tied to Roman Catholic teachings, such as the Immaculate Conception, which are not part of Orthodox theology. There has been no official endorsement or acceptance of the Fatima Message by the ROC, and it is largely ignored by the vast majority of Orthodox Christians and authorities. 
Reasons for the ROC's stance:
Roman Catholic doctrines:
.
The Fatima apparitions promote doctrines like the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility which are not accepted by the Orthodox Church.
Orthodox Mariology:
.
While the Virgin Mary (the Theotokos) is highly revered in the Orthodox tradition, the specific veneration and dogmas presented in Fatima are considered by some to be an overemphasis that could lead to idolatry.
"Conversion of Russia":
The specific request for the consecration of Russia is seen as an appeal to an unnecessary event, as Russia is already a historically Christian country.
Source of apparitions:
.
The apparitions themselves are considered to be part of a Roman Catholic narrative rather than a universally accepted Christian revelation.
Interaction and Ignorance:
No official statement:
There is no record of the Russian Orthodox Church, its bishops, or synods issuing any official statement supporting or condemning the Message of Fatima.
Widespread disregard:
The vast majority of Eastern Orthodox Christians, including those in Russia, generally ignore the apparitions.
Individual interest:
Some individual members of the Russian Orthodox Church may be interested in the Fatima Message, but this does not reflect an official stance by the Church

The Russian Orthodox Church has largely rejected the message of Fatima, viewing it as a Catholic fabrication rooted in a different theological tradition. There has been no formal, positive response from the Moscow Patriarchate, and officials tend to greet the apparitions with suspicion or resentment.
Key reasons for the Russian Orthodox Church's rejection:
Theological differences: Orthodox Christians are suspicious of post-schism apparitions reported in the Catholic Church, especially those that reinforce doctrines they do not share, such as the Immaculate Conception. The devotional emphasis on the "Immaculate Heart of Mary" is also foreign to Orthodox tradition.
A "conversion of Russia" is offensive: The Fatima message calling for the "conversion of Russia" is seen as deeply offensive to the Russian Orthodox Church. They believe Russia, having been Christian for over a thousand years, does not need to be converted to Catholicism. Rather, from their perspective, it was the West that fell into error after the Great Schism of 1054.
Suspicion of Catholic intentions: Some Russian Orthodox officials interpret the Fatima message as a Catholic attempt to exert influence over historically Orthodox territory. This is viewed as part of a long and contentious history between the two churches.
Cautious approach to apparitions: Orthodox theology generally advises caution and skepticism toward visions and apparitions, which are believed to be potential weapons used by the devil. They advise followers to focus instead on traditional prayer and sacraments.
Emphasis on their own miracles: The Orthodox Church points to its own history of Marian miracles and miraculous events, such as weeping icons and the Holy Fire, which they consider authentic and within their spiritual tradition.
The conversion narrative is dismissed: Catholics often interpreted the fall of the Soviet Union as the "conversion of Russia" promised at Fatima. However, the Russian Orthodox Church and many Russians themselves reject this narrative. Russia's post-Soviet state is still seen as morally corrupt, and the rise of Orthodoxy is not viewed as a "Catholic" conversion

According to website America Needs Fatima
However, the fact that works most against the conversion narrative is that most Russians identify with the Russian Orthodox Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. They reject the Fatima narrative because it is Catholic. The Russian conversion narrative stumbles over the fact that Russians do not want to be converted by Fatima.

That is not to say the Russians did not desire to be free from the Soviet yoke. It only means that the Russians do not see this liberation coming from Our Lady of Fatima. They tragically do not frame the changes happening in Russia as part of a universal triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

The Russian conversion narrative runs into more trouble. Russian Orthodox officials tend to see the Fatima apparitions as a Catholic fabrication to encroach on what they claim is exclusively Orthodox canonical territory and area of influence. Seen in the light of the Great Schism of 1054, when the Eastern Church left Rome, the Fatima message is rejected. The Orthodox have long persecuted Catholics in Russia and inhibited the practice of the True Faith.

Instead of embracing the Fatima Message as a heaven-sent aid to encourage Russians in this time of great spiritual need, the Russian Orthodox Church looks upon it with resentment. It claims Russia does not need conversion since it has been Christian for over a thousand years. There is no need for consecration since the Russian people already recognized Our Lady as the Mother of God, the Theotokos.

In short, the Russian Orthodox Church excludes itself from the Fatima Message because its officials do not believe it comes from heaven.

[curious]

Yes, Russian Old Believers are highly suspicious of the Fatima miracle, as are most Eastern Orthodox Christians, for several reasons rooted in theology and historical conflict. They would generally view the apparitions as a fabrication of the Roman Catholic Church or a demonic deception.

In general, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church views the Fatima miracle and other Marian apparitions authenticated by the Roman Catholic Church with suspicion, if they take a position at all. This is consistent with the broader skepticism found within Eastern Orthodoxy toward post-schism Catholic miracles.

Orthodox Christians, including Greek Orthodox, are generally skeptical or indifferent toward the Catholic miracles at Fátima. This stance is not unique to the Greek tradition but is part of a broader Orthodox caution towards apparitions and other mystical experiences outside their own church and tradition.

It is accurate to say that Romanian Orthodox Christians are generally suspicious of the Fatima miracle and other Roman Catholic Marian apparitions, though there is no single official stance. The skepticism comes from theological differences with Catholicism and a distinct Orthodox approach to spiritual experiences.