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Brigid
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2010, 12:48:10 PM »

The book is called, "Carmelite Prayer: A Tradition for the 21st Century"  edited by Keith J. Egan.  It contains 12 separate essays on different aspects of Carmelite prayer. 

I'll need to look for it.
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Therese
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2010, 03:08:50 PM »

I'm reading TheSpiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross and The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila for my Carmelite classes.  I also have other Carmelite books of essays at home that are published by the ICS (The Institute of Carmelite Studies).  I really love Carmelita literature.  I am required to do 15 minutes of Carmelite reading every day along with the other requirements for the order.
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
Brigid
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 03:15:56 PM »

I'm reading TheSpiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross and The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila for my Carmelite classes.  I also have other Carmelite books of essays at home that are published by the ICS (The Institute of Carmelite Studies).  I really love Carmelita literature.  I am required to do 15 minutes of Carmelite reading every day along with the other requirements for the order.

I've read The Way of Perfection but not The Spiritual Canticle. Is it also oriented toward consecrated religious?
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Therese
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2010, 06:23:55 PM »

I'm reading TheSpiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross and The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila for my Carmelite classes.  I also have other Carmelite books of essays at home that are published by the ICS (The Institute of Carmelite Studies).  I really love Carmelita literature.  I am required to do 15 minutes of Carmelite reading every day along with the other requirements for the order.

I've read The Way of Perfection but not The Spiritual Canticle. Is it also oriented toward consecrated religious?

I'm actually reading a #1 commentary on The Spiritual Canticle by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.  The first ones to read the Canticle were the Carmelite nuns in Beas who begged the poet for some enlightenment (as they were in awe over the lines of his poetry, so rich in symbolism as it was).  Thus Fray John of the Cross began his commentary.  In the end, at the request of Madre Ana de Jesus, he compiled a complete commentary.

I know that St. Teresa's work was written with her nuns in mind, but the Canticle appears to be written generally for everyone - however the commentary was written at the request of nuns who wanted enlightenment.  I hope this helps.
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
Shin
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2010, 06:34:47 PM »

Lay people can learn a good deal even from books written soley for nuns! Or even especially from such!  Cheesy
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2010, 07:59:51 PM »

Lay people can learn a good deal even from books written soley for nuns! Or even especially from such!  Cheesy
I agree!
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
Brigid
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 08:03:45 PM »

I'm reading TheSpiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross and The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila for my Carmelite classes.  I also have other Carmelite books of essays at home that are published by the ICS (The Institute of Carmelite Studies).  I really love Carmelita literature.  I am required to do 15 minutes of Carmelite reading every day along with the other requirements for the order.

I've read The Way of Perfection but not The Spiritual Canticle. Is it also oriented toward consecrated religious?

I'm actually reading a #1 commentary on The Spiritual Canticle by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.  The first ones to read the Canticle were the Carmelite nuns in Beas who begged the poet for some enlightenment (as they were in awe over the lines of his poetry, so rich in symbolism as it was).  Thus Fray John of the Cross began his commentary.  In the end, at the request of Madre Ana de Jesus, he compiled a complete commentary.

I know that St. Teresa's work was written with her nuns in mind, but the Canticle appears to be written generally for everyone - however the commentary was written at the request of nuns who wanted enlightenment.  I hope this helps.

Another book I'll need to look for, but you know how much I love to read. Grin
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Therese
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 08:40:48 PM »

I'm reading TheSpiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross and The Way of Perfection by St. Teresa of Avila for my Carmelite classes.  I also have other Carmelite books of essays at home that are published by the ICS (The Institute of Carmelite Studies).  I really love Carmelita literature.  I am required to do 15 minutes of Carmelite reading every day along with the other requirements for the order.

I've read The Way of Perfection but not The Spiritual Canticle. Is it also oriented toward consecrated religious?

I'm actually reading a #1 commentary on The Spiritual Canticle by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.  The first ones to read the Canticle were the Carmelite nuns in Beas who begged the poet for some enlightenment (as they were in awe over the lines of his poetry, so rich in symbolism as it was).  Thus Fray John of the Cross began his commentary.  In the end, at the request of Madre Ana de Jesus, he compiled a complete commentary.

I know that St. Teresa's work was written with her nuns in mind, but the Canticle appears to be written generally for everyone - however the commentary was written at the request of nuns who wanted enlightenment.  I hope this helps.

Another book I'll need to look for, but you know how much I love to read. Grin

The book I have is called The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross.  I already gave you the translators' names - just in case you are interested in reading the same book.
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2010, 03:41:06 PM »

I can't find where someone asked the difference between resignation and acceptance...... but I thought about that today.   

Whenever I have taken a loss, at first everything in my being protests...... in a big way to bigger losses, small ways (a groan or so) to small losses.  Then eventually I resign myself: "well I can't do anything about it so I'll have to live with it........ sarcastically saying, "thanks a lot God." 

After a while (in one case years) I get to a place where I notice new directions, new tasks, new purposes seems to crop up out of the nothingness of the loss I felt before...... then I accept that ***, it must have been in God's hands all along....... not that He caused the loss for my sake (I think that is a bit self-centered to think that) but that He was present all along and brings good out of the most horrible....... even if it is just His peace.  That's when I have accepted His Will.   So, protest, then resignation, then acceptance.  But you have to cooperate with the process or you just get bitter over loss rather than seeing sanctifying opportunity in it. 

How this all relates to detachment I don't know...... but I couldn't find where that statement was made..........
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Patricia
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« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2010, 03:59:41 PM »

Bailey, I think you have described in a nutshell, how one feels in a trial of some sort. First the repulsion to the suffering, then resignation and finally acceptance when one sees the whole picture in the eyes of faith.
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« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2010, 05:03:28 PM »

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So, protest, then resignation, then acceptance.  But you have to cooperate with the process or you just get bitter over loss rather than seeing sanctifying opportunity in it. 

In theory, Bailey2 and Patricia, putting it that way is perfect, but quite a few things (even almost 30 years ago (or more) I can't see the positive in. Somethings 5 years ago I can see it now, but others (shakes head). I realize those things were His Will (either permissive or first-choice - I can't think of the word), but I don't see any positive that came from them. Maybe in heaven I'll see? Then how do I quit being resentful of Him before then? Isn't this where trust in Him and holy detachment come in?
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Bailey2
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« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2010, 07:46:53 PM »

Oh, I didn't mean that there is good IN the loss, I meant that out of the experience of loss, if we are open to God we will find (eventually) that He was with us all along.  And then have the strength to effect His Will by cooperating with Him in bringing good out of the bad.  Example: Losing a child is NEVER going to be a positive experience, ever, ever......  But, a man in our parish who just lost his daughter to drug overdose has made it public for the newspaper to bring attention to the issue and has set up a foundation for drug education in the community.... all within one month of his child's death!   Other positives are when someone with breast cancer becomes involved helping newly diagnosed through the traumatic experience.  Or simply having more compassion for those who suffer.  This is what I mean by positives coming out of loss.  But loss as an event is always bad, so to speak.  And I think a person can come to acceptance and still have tinges of anger, sadness, etc.  

I was resentful for a long time after a couple of big, big losses.  How I got over it was finding some other thing to focus my attention on that was worthwhile in this world and then work on not thinking about the loss.  It was VERY hard!!!   I still to this day can get myself into resentful mode if I think about it.  So I try not to...... and think about right now instead!  God only gives us right now.

But I don't believe God gives us suffering.  I think God is with us in suffering, which is just the state of things here on earth.  We say He "sends us crosses" but I don't believe that literally.  I think crosses abound.  He doesn't have to send anything.  He gives us the grace to endure, to heal, to become larger than the cross.  And we can never do that on our own.  
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Brigid
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« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2010, 08:38:58 PM »

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But I don't believe God gives us suffering.  I think God is with us in suffering, which is just the state of things here on earth.  We say He "sends us crosses" but I don't believe that literally.  I think crosses abound.  He doesn't have to send anything.  He gives us the grace to endure, to heal, to become larger than the cross.  And we can never do that on our own. 


I'm in complete agreement there. To me God sending us crosses really means allowing us crosses. But to become larger than the cross - what do you mean, there? :'(


Quote
How I got over it was finding some other thing to focus my attention on that was worthwhile in this world and then work on not thinking about the loss. 

Isn't that just repressing it, almost a denial? Isn't a person facing up to 'it', plowing through 'it and going on anyway, more likely to be open to God (and, of course be healthier)? Now I'm talking in theory, not in your particular case. Maybe facing up to it and doing something worthwhile was plowing through it in your case.

Quote
And I think a person can come to acceptance and still have tinges of anger, sadness, etc. 

This is a different thought, although willing to love God, rather than just feeling it is certainly what the Church teaches.

Quote
But, a man in our parish who just lost his daughter to drug overdose has made it public for the newspaper to bring attention to the issue and has set up a foundation for drug education in the community.... all within one month of his child's death!   

Amazing!
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Therese
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« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2010, 08:48:07 PM »

Isn't this where trust in Him and holy detachment come in?

Yes, exactly.
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
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« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2010, 08:51:06 PM »

Isn't this where trust in Him and holy detachment come in?

Yes, exactly.
brick wall

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Therese
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« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2010, 08:59:04 PM »

Why is that person's head hitting against a brick wall? Smiley
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Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you (Matth. 6:33).
Bailey2
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« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2010, 09:59:23 PM »

I have to agree with Therese.  What's with the brick wall?

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I'm in complete agreement there. To me God sending us crosses really means allowing us crosses. But to become larger than the cross - what do you mean, there?

When Jesus rose from the dead, he conquered the cross...... rose above the cross.... transcended the cross.  I think we do that whenever we take our suffering experiences and focus our energy on something greater than our sufferings/cross.  When we do that, we rise from that death (become larger than the cross) and I think we repeat this until final death when Jesus will raise us up the final time.  Hope that helps.

Quote
Isn't that just repressing it, almost a denial? Isn't a person facing up to 'it', plowing through 'it and going on anyway, more likely to be open to God (and, of course be healthier)? Now I'm talking in theory, not in your particular case. Maybe facing up to it and doing something worthwhile was plowing through it in your case.

Facing in the sense of grieving is good.  Ruminating indefinitely is unhealthy (there's a diagnosis for that   Grin).  Best way I can describe this is the following:  sometimes I get a paper cut and for a while it doesn't hurt though it's bleeding all over.  Then, I notice the blood and bam! Suddenly it hurts like heck.  It all depends where my attn is.  Once the initial shock and grief over a loss is waning, it is time to help the healing process along by focussing our attn on something else, something more productive and life-giving.  I think sometimes we need to detach from our delusions that we are somehow getting ourselves to heaven by suffering.  I think God wants us to get to a place of simply kissing the cross and putting it on the shelf while we live Resurrection.  Jesus only suffered the cross one day, not his whole life!

You know?  I just read something by St. Chantal about this very thing........ I'll have to put it here........ but not now.  Got to go............  Nite.


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