Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[stccp]

 

Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

Respect for women in this country is at an all time low, and much of that is because of the way they dress, Going shopping, to class and even to Sunday Mass, in a t-shirt, jeans or shorts, does nothing to enhance the dignity of a woman. Women dress the way they do today because someone, over half a century ago, decided they wanted to dumb down America, and convincing people to be less concerned about how they dress is one way of doing it.

Our society today suffers from an acute lack of critical thinking skills, and there is a definite connection between the way we dress and how we think. If we dress like slobs, we soon begin to think like slobs. No discipline of body – no discipline of mind. This situation did not come about by accident, but was a well orchestrated plan to help destroy our Christian society. In her book "Dressing With Dignity”, Colleen Hammond explains this point in detail.

In her article, “The Dignity of True Femininity”, Dr. Anne Marie McDonnell also illustrates the extent of the problem. She says: “For a woman to live according to Catholic teaching in today’s society she needs heroic virtue. Every form of media, including television, movies, magazines, books, computers, music, and theater all assault women's human dignity, often portraying her in a pornographic manner as an object of lust."

Women need to understand that men react differently than women in regards to modesty. The following quote  illustrates the point.

”Women must learn that men are “wired” differently and the way a woman dresses can have a definite impact on how a man reacts to her. As an example, if a man is watching a TV talk show or interview, and sees a modestly dressed woman sitting on a chair or couch and she is wearing a dress or skirt that extends several inches below the knees, she is viewed as a total woman and the mans concentration is on her, as a complete person, and on what she is saying or whatever her purpose is for being on that particular show.

However, if you take the same woman and shorten her skirt so that it is two or three inches above the knees, then the man perceives her in a different manner, more as a sexual object. He no longer views her as a whole person worthy of respect. Instead, he sees her as a collection of parts, with some parts drawing more attention than others. This sexual “evaluation” all takes place in split second in the brain, but has the effect of distracting the man from what she is saying, because her appearance is sending a different message.

Even if they are full length and not tight fitting, a pair of slacks on a woman has the same psychological effect of dividing her up into parts”.

 Mrs. Hammond discusses this phenomenon in her above-mentioned book. Also, the above quote correlates very well with a modesty talk given to freshman girls every year at Christendom College.

Both Scripture and History have shown that when the women of a country are virtuous, the country is strong, but if the moral standards of those women decline, as they have in this country, then the moral standards of men also fall and that society soon begins to sink deeper and deeper into the waters of moral decay.

In times past, most young girls were raised as maidens of virtue and innocence. All aspects of their femininity were cultivated and they emerged from their youthful years as refined young women of modesty, character and grace, possessing all the necessary skills that would one day allow them to assume the important God given role of wife and mother.

Sadly, this is no longer the case in our present day culture. We have done a complete about-face in our attitudes toward sin and God’s laws. To today’s "liberated woman", the concepts of modesty and feminine loveliness are almost completely foreign.

This idea that women must take the lead in matters of modesty and in guiding men to holiness is not new. I have found several such statements in a number of old prayer books and Church writings. Below, I have listed several quotes from one such book. 

The name of this particular book is “Hail Holy Queen, a Book of Prayer and Counsel for Catholic Girls and Women, the Roman Missal for Sundays”, by Fr. Charles J. Callan and Fr. John A. McHugh. They wrote the following:

“If the standards of morals in a country or age is low, you may be sure that it is because the women of that country or age are lax in their morals; for women, being naturally more virtuous than men, are looked up to by men as models in matters pertaining to modesty and purity. This is why the Church is so insistent that women be modest in their dress.” Pg 3

“A woman should never lose respect for her own body, for it is the work of God; it is the instrument and companion of her soul and the temple of the Holy Ghost, destined for future glorification.” Pg. 53

“A woman may not be expensively dressed, or wearing the latest “fad” clothing. She may not have those attractions which are most admired by the world; but if she has the virtues of modesty and purity, she has something that money cannot buy, a treasure which will outlast all the fading glitter of the world.” Pg.53

“Some women are so delightfully neat and stylish that they always appear to be dressed up, however plain and inexpensive her clothes may be. Others there are who look as if they dwell in a region of perpetual cyclones, and whom the entire garment industry could never suffice to make them look dressed up. Try to emulate the better way.” Pg. 4

In view of the above-mentioned ideas, I would urge women to reconsider the manner in which they dress, and also the manner in which they dress their young children. How often do we see, even at Sunday Mass, young girls dressed in skimpy outfits, thus accustoming them to immodesty at a very early age.

And, as a side note, I should, at least, mention the disgraceful display of immodesty exhibited by brides and their bridal parties an most Catholic weddings today. Recently, at such a wedding I attended, the comment was made that the bride and bridal party looked more like the Playboy Review than an occasion of “Holy” matrimony.

In conclusion, I would offer a challenge to any woman who reads this article. For two or three weeks, get rid of the t-shirts, slacks and old tennis shoes and wear a long skirt and nice blouse, or dress, and dress very feminine and ladylike (but not extravagantly), and notice how you are treated by other people, men especially.

[Shin]

Hmmm, thank you much especially for the reference to: “Hail Holy Queen, a Book of Prayer and Counsel for Catholic Girls and Women, the Roman Missal for Sundays"

This old book would well be worth having made available in etext online, or at least finding so as to quote more liberal excerpts from. I am always looking for modesty books, there's a great deal of material on the subject that simply is not widely available at the moment, but no doubt sitting on dusty shelves in old libraries, or boxes in people's attics.

I shall keep an eye open for it in the library system to see if I can have it loaned out to a local library. 

[Bailey2]

Good points  but I don't buy it hook, line, and sinker.
I could elaborate but I'm not sure that would be wise here...........

[Brigid]

I do agree with it "hook, line and sinker", however I would be interested to hear what those who do not say/believe (but are generally thought of as at least "moderate" in their views of Catholicism). I believe a friendly discussion of this could only be helpful to the many "lurkers", some of whom may have the same beliefs as you.

[Bailey2]

Ah, the beloved lurkers; never ceases to amaze me why they don't come out of the dark.  You know what our Lord said about people who hang out in the dark.....   

Respect for women in this country is at an all time low  We don't burn them at the stake or stone them after 99 lashes for making a mistake (while the guy goes free) as is true of other countries where women where long dresses and sometimes Burkas.

Women dress the way they do today because someone, over half a century ago, decided they wanted to dumb down America  I'm not clear the correlation between dress and being dumb

Our society today suffers from an acute lack of critical thinking skills  Definitely true; but always has been true.  That's how Hitler was elected to office and that has nothing to do with dress.

In her article, “The Dignity of True Femininity”, Dr. Anne Marie McDonnell also illustrates the extent of the problem. She says: “For a woman to live according to Catholic teaching in today’s society she needs heroic virtue. Every form of media, including television, movies, magazines, books, computers, music, and theater all assault women's human dignity, often portraying her in a pornographic manner as an object of lust."   Agreed!

Women need to understand that men react differently than women in regards to modesty. The following quote  illustrates the point.

”Women must learn that men are “wired” differently and the way a woman dresses can have a definite impact on how a man reacts to her. As an example, if a man is watching a TV talk show or interview, and sees a modestly dressed woman sitting on a chair or couch and she is wearing a dress or skirt that extends several inches below the knees, she is viewed as a total woman and the mans concentration is on her, as a complete person, and on what she is saying or whatever her purpose is for being on that particular show. I think this is silly.  Men get just as aroused seeing a beautiful face in a full long flowing garb as he does when he sees a woman in tight jeans on a horse.  That's why they insist on Burkas in Iran.  That way men see nothing and so no temptation.  I also know that women lust just as much as men and can do so when he is looking "debonaire" in a handsome full suit.

However, if you take the same woman and shorten her skirt so that it is two or three inches above the knees, then the man perceives her in a different manner, more as a sexual object. He no longer views her as a whole person worthy of respect. Instead, he sees her as a collection of parts, with some parts drawing more attention than others. This sexual “evaluation” all takes place in split second in the brain, but has the effect of distracting the man from what she is saying, because her appearance is sending a different message.  I simply think this way of dressing is in poor taste.  It is likely to make a man (and an observing woman, for that matter) embarrassed because it is just plain inappropriate.  I have seen many a men blush for such inappropriateness.  And I would imagine if he objectified her he would not be embarrassed at all.

Even if they are full length and not tight fitting, a pair of slacks on a woman has the same psychological effect of dividing her up into parts”.   I don't feel divided when I wear jeans and a tea shirt or slacks and a polo shirt and I don't think my shoes divide my feet from my legs.

 Mrs. Hammond discusses this phenomenon in her above-mentioned book. Also, the above quote correlates very well with a modesty talk given to freshman girls every year at Christendom College.

Both Scripture and History have shown that when the women of a country are virtuous, the country is strong, but if the moral standards of those women decline, as they have in this country, then the moral standards of men also fall and that society soon begins to sink deeper and deeper into the waters of moral decay.  Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, and a host of others........ need I say more?

In times past, most young girls were raised as maidens of virtue and innocence. All aspects of their femininity were cultivated and they emerged from their youthful years as refined young women of modesty, character and grace, possessing all the necessary skills that would one day allow them to assume the important God given role of wife and mother.   Only in the upper class or caste.  The poor were/are grungy and hardly maidens...... and they are still beloved of God


The name of this particular book is “Hail Holy Queen, a Book of Prayer and Counsel for Catholic Girls and Women, the Roman Missal for Sundays”, by Fr. Charles J. Callan and Fr. John A. McHugh. They wrote the following:

“If the standards of morals in a country or age is low, you may be sure that it is because the women of that country or age are lax in their morals; for women, being naturally more virtuous than men, are looked up to by men as models in matters pertaining to modesty and purity. This is why the Church is so insistent that women be modest in their dress.” Pg 3    OK guys, you would think that women are more virtuous than men?   How many men have resisted temptation, died for the faith, been faithful to their wives in this culture and in cultures before this one just as "depraved?"  I am not an angel.  I am a woman.

“A woman should never lose respect for her own body, for it is the work of God; it is the instrument and companion of her soul and the temple of the Holy Ghost, destined for future glorification.” Pg. 53   Nice

“A woman may not be expensively dressed, or wearing the latest “fad” clothing. She may not have those attractions which are most admired by the world; but if she has the virtues of modesty and purity, she has something that money cannot buy, a treasure which will outlast all the fading glitter of the world.” Pg.53   Especially as she ages. 

“Some women are so delightfully neat and stylish that they always appear to be dressed up, however plain and inexpensive her clothes may be. Others there are who look as if they dwell in a region of perpetual cyclones, and whom the entire garment industry could never suffice to make them look dressed up. Try to emulate the better way.” Pg. 4

In view of the above-mentioned ideas, I would urge women to reconsider the manner in which they dress, and also the manner in which they dress their young children. How often do we see, even at Sunday Mass, young girls dressed in skimpy outfits, thus accustoming them to immodesty at a very early age.   True, true, and true  (see?  I don't disagree with all of this?   )

And, as a side note, I should, at least, mention the disgraceful display of immodesty exhibited by brides and their bridal parties an most Catholic weddings today. Recently, at such a wedding I attended, the comment was made that the bride and bridal party looked more like the Playboy Review than an occasion of “Holy” matrimony.   True!

In conclusion, I would offer a challenge to any woman who reads this article. For two or three weeks, get rid of the t-shirts, slacks and old tennis shoes and wear a long skirt and nice blouse, or dress, and dress very feminine and ladylike (but not extravagantly), and notice how you are treated by other people, men especially.   I've tried this; hubby doesn't notice; neither do my sons.  By the way, I always dress modestly period, especially because I have sons....... I just don't wear skirts all the time. 

Well hope this satisfies the lurkers! 

[Brigid]

 

Men get just as aroused seeing a beautiful face in a full long flowing garb as he does when he sees a woman in tight jeans on a horse.  That's why they insist on Burkas in Iran.  That way men see nothing and so no temptation.  I also know that women lust just as much as men and can do so when he is looking"debonaire" in a handsome full suit.

Yes, a man can get aroused seeing a beautiful face in a full long flowing garb as he does when he sees a woman in tight jeans - however (that dread "however" ) his arousal is not due to anything the woman has done but only to his own concupiscence (if the woman has not given immodest looks or said immodest things).
Immodest looks can also be an invitation to impurity, which may be why the burka is wanted in some middle-east countries.
Some women can certainly lust, however I've read research that has shown that men think about impurity much more often than women (a lot more often!).

I simply think this way of dressing is in poor taste.  It is likely to make a man (and an observing woman, for that matter) embarrassed because it is just plain inappropriate.  I have seen many a men blush for such inappropriateness.

Ah....but isn't inappropriateness simply a culturally imposed judgement?

Only in the upper class or caste.  The poor were/are grungy and hardly maidens...... and they are still beloved of God

True.

OK guys, you would think that women are more virtuous than men?   How many men have resisted temptation, died for the faith, been faithful to their wives in this culture and in cultures before this one just as "depraved?"  I am not an angel.  I am a woman.

No connotation here of you being an angel - never fear.   I do see (and have had men admit to me) that men look to women - rightly or wrongly - as models of what is virtuous. Besides, women usually are the primary 'teachers' of their sons at least when they are very young.

Especially as she ages.

Ouch!

I've tried this; hubby doesn't notice; neither do my sons.  By the way, I always dress modestly period, especially because I have sons....... I just don't wear skirts all the time. 

Hubby and sons don't count since they don't really notice 'Mom' anyway. When did you ever totally change your hair or something and no mention of it was made by your own menfolk. It's the response from the male cashier, the plumber, etc. over a period of time that show the change in treatment.

[Bailey2]

Ah, where do I begin Brigid!   

his arousal is not due to anything the woman has done but only to his own concupiscence

thank goodness for this concupiscence!  Without it the human race would not be.  Be fruitful and multiply needs robust and healthy concupiscence!!

Ah....but isn't inappropriateness simply a culturally imposed judgement?

Yep, mine!   
However, I base my judgment on observations........

I do see (and have had men admit to me) that men look to women - rightly or wrongly - as models of what is virtuous. Besides, women usually are the primary 'teachers' of their sons at least when they are very young.

How many men have you interviewed out of all the men in the human race?  In other words, what was your sample size (as we say in research)?   

It's the response from the male cashier, the plumber, etc. over a period of time that show the change in treatment.

Most male cashiers I have met see the register and bags, not me.  In fact, sometimes they say "how are you today" twice because they have forgotten they already said it once.  And Plumbers?  ***, wouldn't want them frequenting my house!   

This is fun but I have to go to a good-bye dinner.  Our friend is moving next week across the country....... Be back tomorrow....... 

[Brigid]

Ah, where do I begin Brigid!   

his arousal is not due to anything the woman has done but only to his own concupiscence

thank goodness for this concupiscence!  Without it the human race would not be.  Be fruitful and multiply needs robust and healthy concupiscence!!

Ah....but isn't inappropriateness simply a culturally imposed judgement?

Yep, mine!   
However, I base my judgment on observations........

I do see (and have had men admit to me) that men look to women - rightly or wrongly - as models of what is virtuous. Besides, women usually are the primary 'teachers' of their sons at least when they are very young.

How many men have you interviewed out of all the men in the human race?  In other words, what was your sample size (as we say in research)?   

It's the response from the male cashier, the plumber, etc. over a period of time that show the change in treatment.

Most male cashiers I have met see the register and bags, not me.  In fact, sometimes they say "how are you today" twice because they have forgotten they already said it once.  And Plumbers?  ***, wouldn't want them frequenting my house!   

[Bailey2]

 

Before the lurkers and the brave people who post here get the wrong idea:

Modesty is very important, very important.  How one carries ones self is at least as important as what one wears..... even more so.......
But there is other thing that also facilitates a lack of respect for women: men who enjoy power.  Taken as a whole both immodesty and want for power, the human species looks and acts like the rest of the animal kingdom, complete with mindless mating practices (including seductiveness) and the butting of heads for supremacy (unrestrained competition).  In that latter case, men see men not as whole persons but as potential threats to their supremacy.  (competition surrounds any constellation of sexes: male/male, female/female, male/female).  All these things demean both men and women to a status of animal and in that, to my mind is the root sin of all this lack of respect (for life). 

So, in none of my previous posts do I want to portray a lack of appreciation for the holiness of modesty.  But do consider that a lack of modesty is not the core of the problem of the lack of respect for persons and I think by focusing solely on that as some kind of core thing, we miss the other evils that lead to immodesty.  So I wanted to bring one of them up here.  They are all tied together.

[Brigid]

I agree that there are a number of factors that facilitate a lack of respect and dignity for each person. However, saying that that is the reason for not being dignified in dress and presentation as a female is rather like little Tommy saying, "I won't do what I am supposed to do until Joey does". (Doesn't this seem somewhat redolent of the Cold War?) Since women are "hard-wired" (generally) to be less concerned about power and ego, it makes sense for them to lead the way in recognizing appropriate respect and dignity for others. One of the ways this can be done is by recognizing their own dignity as women by keeping those things that are physically special and a mysterious "veiled" in a way that shows congruency with their unmitigated femininity.
 

[Bailey2]

OK,   but I'm still not confining my attire to long dresses and head coverings even though I cover up.  I've always been a tom-boy since I was a child who smudged tar on my Sunday dress-- not in rebellion, just because I liked to play in it; 7 days a week. 

PS.  I disagree about women's hard-wiring:  Have you ever heard who "rules the roost?"   

[martin]

My thoughts for what they're worth.
Fashion is something generated by the market place and of course those who decide what next years fashion's gonna be are not at all concerned with Christian virtue. In fact they seem to be opposed to virtue of any kind.
It is so sad to see young girls and even boys now being slaves to the anti Christian forces who try to dictate every aspect of their lives. Even more disturbing is when the older generation follow the same line and how terribly demeaning it all is.
Modesty in dress is the lost virtue of our times and i believe this has consequences far beyond what we generally perceive. I personally believe it is tied in with abortion, contraception, disobedience to parents, disrespect for authority, crude language, vanity, pride and probably all the other afflictions of our times.
Maybe immodesty is the symptom rather than the cause but it is itself a first step into all the others mentioned.
This is only my opinion from what I've so far read but if I studied it even more I feel my opinion would be confirmed as fact.
We  have the duty of being virtuous despite what the world would want us to be, whether in season or out of season, whether fashionable or unfashionable.
It's just as easy to dress modestly as it is to dress immodestly. I mean that for us men too.

[Brigid]

OK,   but I'm still not confining my attire to long dresses and head coverings even though I cover up.  I've always been a tom-boy since I was a child who smudged tar on my Sunday dress-- not in rebellion, just because I liked to play in it; 7 days a week. 

PS.  I disagree about women's hard-wiring:  Have you ever heard who "rules the roost?"   

As far as smudging your Sunday dress - well, that didn't happen for me and my mother couldn't get me in a pair of pants 'til I was seven - I had a play dress (that only got one petticoat to go with it ).
As far as "ruling the roost", well, I've heard of the "power behind the throne" more.

[odhiambo]

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.  Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.

1 Peter 3:3-4