Saints' Discussion Forums

Sometimes when reading the Bible, I have difficulties understanding what is meant. I thought to start this thread through which I and others with the same problem of course, can share these difficulties as and when we encounter them and hope that others will help us iron them out.
Thank you all.

Fully believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, how do we explain Matthew 12: 40
“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”
We know that Jesus died on Good Friday and arose on Easter Sunday.
I never really thought about the relationship of the prophet Jonah and Jesus until yesterday.
I have sent the same question to our parish but thought to ask it here as well where i am sure to get a faster reply.

Interesting, I will wait for an answer to that query.

Many events in the old testament prefigured events in the new testament.
Here is the Haydock commentary on Matthew 12: 40

In the whale's belly. [4] The word signifies a great fish, and was not perhaps that which we commonly call a whale. In the prophet Jonas, it is called, a great fish. — Three days and three nights; not three whole days and three nights, but part of three natural days, from which, in common computation, the nights used not to be separated.

We have an instance of this, Esther iv. 16, where the Jews were ordered to fast with her three days, and three nights: and yet (C. v, v. 1) Esther, after part of three days, went to the king. — In the heart of the earth: by which is signified, Christ's descent into hell; as S. Paul says (Ephes. iv. 9.) that he descended into the inferior parts of the earth, and this cannot be understood of the grave only.

 — Jesus Christ expired on the cross about the ninth hour, or 3 p.m. when the general and supernatural darkness that covered the earth, may be counted for the first night, and the light which again appeared, for the term of the first day. V. — As Jonas was a sign to the Ninivites, so is Christ to the Jews; for as he by the prodigy of remaining so long in the fish's belly, and afterwards coming forth alive, gave such authority to his preaching, that the Ninivites were converted; so Christ, by his death and resurrection on the third day, shall shew that he is the true Christ, and this generation shall acknowledge him for the Messias.

Thank you martin.

The Gospel Reading of last Friday was that According to Saint Mark 11:11-26.
The following is the text from  The Revised Standard Version of the Holy Bible.

"And he entered Jerusalem, and went into the temple; and when he had looked round at everything, as it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the twelve. On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard it. And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons; and he would not allow any one to carry anything through the temple. And he taught, and said to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers." And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and sought a way to destroy him; for they feared him, because all the multitude was astonished at his teaching. And when evening came they went out of the city. As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. And Peter remembered and said to him, "Master, look! The fig tree which you cursed has withered." And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."

After reading it, I wondered to myself why Jesus cursed the fig tree. Trees are surely not to blame for not bearing fruit, besides, the Evangelist makes it very clear that “it was not the season for figs”. Why then the curse?
Well, I turned to Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary:  Martin, you quoted from this earlier. It only answered the question partially.
Here is an excerpt:

"Christ knew there was no fruit upon it, and that it was not the season, or a season for figs. See Matthew xxi. 19, what instruction he designed to give his disciples by what he said and did to the fig-tree. (Witham) --- Jesus Christ here curses the barren tree, on account of his disciples, who were present; for as he every where gave instances of his most beneficent will, it was proper he should also give them proofs of his justice and severity. Hence his principal motive for cursing the fig-tree was, not on account of any hunger he then experienced; for it is not probable that Christ should experience so great hunger, and at so early an hour, as these words seem to indicate. (Ven. Bede)"

So Jesus wanted to pass on some message to His disciples. What massage? The commentary does not explain and one is left still searching for answers.
I think I eventually found an answer which I was happy with in another Commentary. Will hang on to it for now in case there are more than one explanations.
How do others understand and explain Jesus cursing of the Fig Tree?

I have always wondered about the cursed fig tree too. To be cursed by God is a terrible thing, to be forsaken by God. How wonderful to be loved by God and to be forgiven constantly during our lifetime.
Why did Jesus answer the way He did?
Why did He say
Why didn't He just explain why He cursed the fig tree? ???

That was His way and though we do not understand why we believe that His way is best. Sometimes He spoke literally but other times it was metaphors, analogies, etc. Even the Apostles at times asked for explanations  :)

I remember a saint relating the mountain to sin.

'According to the Gospel, the person who is simply a man of faith can remove the mountain of his sin through the practice of the virtues (cf. Matt. 17:20), thus freeing himself from his former attachment to the restless gyration of sensible things. If he has the capacity to be a disciple he receives fragments of the loaves of spiritual knowledge from the hands of the Logos and feeds thousands of people (cf. Matt. 14:19-20), demonstrating by his action how the power of the Logos is increased and multiplied by the practice of the virtues. If he also has the strength to be an apostle he cures every disease and infirmity: he casts out demons (cf. Matt. 10:8; Luke 10:17), that is, he banishes the activity of the passions; he heals the sick, through hope restoring a state of devotion to those who have lost it, and through his teaching about judgment stiffening the resolve of those who have been softened by sloth. For, since he has been commanded "to tread on serpents and scorpions" (Luke 10:19), he destroys the beginning and end of sin.'

St. Maximos the Confessor

I pray the Lord will one day inspire me so I can understand these things. Some reasonings are just too convulated for me to comprehend; too complex for the likes of me. :(

The Saints help us understand better.  :)

This is how I have understood the incident where Jesus curses the fig tree.
References :
1:The Collegeville Bible Commentary.
2: Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament Review

Refer to the following Biblical quotations:
"When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved.
Hosea 9: 10

I wanted to gather my people, as a farmer gathers a harvest; but they are like a vine with no grapes, like a fig tree with no figs; even the leaves have withered. Therefore, I have allowed outsiders to take over the land.

2: Jeremiah 8: 13

According to Collegeville Bible Commentary, the fig tree was a common Old Testament image for Israel. So Jesus cursing the fig tree was, symbolically, to show His unhappiness with the Jewish people; why? because of their “not bearing the fruit of repentance”. At the same time, the withering and death of the tree was a foreshadow of the catastrophe that was to befall Jerusalem  for the crucifixion of the Messiah.

Thats very interesting!

I don't understand everything about the bible.  But I learned that in time, my questions will be answered.  Not that I asked the question...but when I don't understand... I thought, maybe there's a profound meaning to it so I'm not seeing it yet.  Or maybe it's not yet time for me to know.

Your question on the fig trees...funny enough,... it was explained by the priest who presided our first Friday mass at work.  You would wonder why would Jesus curse a fig tree just because it doesn't have fruits, right?  It's not the tree's fault.  The priest explained that with fig trees, depending on the leaves it show, it will tell if it has fruits or not.  And so basically, the fig tree had leaves that shows it's supposed to bear figs...but when Jesus looked, there wasn't any.  It's the same for us.  It is not enough for us to "look" holy...we should bear the fruit of holiness.  We are not to just cloak ourselves with the word "Christian"... we are to live it. To be a witness to it.  And so, that's what will happen...we project to others we are Christians, but Jesus who truly knows us, ... if we are not true to such a belief...well, we'll be cursed.  :P

Was that any help at all?  O:)

I guess that is one way of looking at it.
I rather like the commentaries given above from the Collegeville Bible Commentary and the
 Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament Review. :)

The question of how to understand the Bible is difficult to answer. The most common - and erroneous - way to understand the Sacred Scriptures is from a purely intellectual point of view. Modern readers judge and interpret the Sacred Scriptures based on their own modern opinions and sometimes conjure up monstrous interpretations of the mysteries of the Sacred texts - instead of illuminating our understanding, these modern opinions and commentaries obscure the message.

The Sacred Scriptures are so profound that trying to understand them is like stretching out to touch the heavens or the depths of the ocean. The farther one goes, the farther and more obscure the aimed destination becomes. Each time we read the Scriptures, a new meaning comes to us. Many things related in them are so simple that even the unlearned can delight in their directness, yet they are at the same time so profound that even the learned never cease to be nourished by its deep mysteries.

In order to understand the Sacred Scriptures, one should read the commentaries of the Saints and of the Church. The Great Commentary of Fr. Cornelius a Lapide, the commentary of Fr. Haydock, the Catena Aurea of St. Thomas Aquinas, and a vast collection of works from the Church Fathers (for example, St. John Chrysostom) should be places to start.

Thank you for your comment ChristianCatholic. :)

"But Melchisedech the king of Salem, bringing forth bread and wine, for he was the priest of the most high God,

 Blessed him, and said: Blessed be Abram by the most high God, who created heaven and earth.

 And blessed be the most high God, by whose protection the enemies are in thy hands. And he gace him the tithes of all."
Genesis 14: 18-20
Who was this King who who blessed Abram with bread and wine?

A mysterious figure for sure. Melchizedek is mentioned in Gen. 14:18-20 psalm 110:4  Heb. 6: 20 Heb. 7:1-3 Heb. 7:15-17

All I could find is his name means "Righteous King", king of Salem means "King of Peace"

He supposedly is according to my bible commentary "A type of Christ representing a priesthood that is unique and eternal"
"A priest of the God of Israel".

I find the bread and wine reference remarkable, the fact he was mentioned in Psalm 110 makes it even more thought provoking, I am leaning in the same direction you are.

What did Jesus mean by "scandalized" when He said in  Matthew 26:31,
"All you shall be scandalized in me this night...."?

It menat all of you will be embarrrassed and afraid to be associated with me.

Following is last Sunday Gospel Reading.

Gospel Mt 20:1-16a

Jesus told his disciples this parable:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner
who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard.
After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage,
he sent them into his vineyard.
Going out about nine o’clock,
the landowner saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard,
and I will give you what is just.’
So they went off.
And he went out again around noon,
and around three o’clock, and did likewise.
Going out about five o’clock,
the landowner found others standing around, and said to them,
‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’
They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’
He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’
When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman,
‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.’
When those who had started about five o’clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
‘These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’
He said to one of them in reply,
‘My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?’
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Who did Jesus mean by the "First and Last"?
I read an interesting reflection on this text and wondered whether others think the same.

Scandal is the term for a specific sin. The 'sin of scandal'. St. Thomas has an article on it.

Normally I simply think of it as the sin of giving bad example to others. By deeds or words, by omission, or any of the 9 ways of being an accessory to sin.

'As Jerome observes the Greek skandalon may be rendered offense, downfall, or a stumbling against something. For when a body, while moving along a path, meets with an obstacle, it may happen to stumble against it, and be disposed to fall down: such an obstacle is a skandalon.

In like manner, while going along the spiritual way, a man may be disposed to a spiritual downfall by another's word or deed, in so far, to wit, as one man by his injunction, inducement or example, moves another to sin; and this is scandal properly so called.

Now nothing by its very nature disposes a man to spiritual downfall, except that which has some lack of rectitude, since what is perfectly right, secures man against a fall, instead of conducing to his downfall. Scandal is, therefore, fittingly defined as "something less rightly done or said, that occasions another's spiritual downfall."'

St. Thomas Aquinas


And there is also the 'Scandal of the Cross'. That the world considers the cross a bad example than a good one, because they do not understand it, hate suffering, and et cetera.

I think there are many people who do not consider the sin of scandal when they communicate with others, and the perfection they are called to in their words, if they did, they would instead remain silent rather than defending various evil actions, and so thereby defending the harm given to others.

The bad scandal:

'Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.'

Matthew 16:23

The good scandal:

'As it is written: Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and a rock of scandal; and whosoever believeth in him shall not be confounded.'

Romans 9:33

An example of the sin of scandal would be a woman wearing an immodest dress. The woman would be guilty of the sin of scandal in regards to all the other women whom she influences by her bad example of clothing. She would also be guilty of all the sins she provoked in the men who saw her.

Another example would be a man who habitually excuses a politician who aborts babies. The politician is seeing to it that the little ones are killed, but the man makes various specious excuses for this mentality, excuses which have no real existence or appropriate use but are simply brought forth because the politician is of the same party and the man feels duty bound to defend anyone of the same political party. This would apply in less direct circumstances too, i.e., the politician who is paving the way for the abortion of babies without explicitly embracing abortion yet, which goes to show how a discerning eye is necessary in many matters and yet people feel free to speak and comment on any topic even those which they are not sufficient for.

Some people are ever ready to defend scandalous prelates, believing themselves duty bound to do so, when in fact, Our Lord has said, 'Woe to the world because of scandals' and 'Anyone who shall scandalize one of these little ones. . .'

And Pope Pius XII says, 'they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible.'

It seems that many people may not actually realize they are being scandalous; for instance, the woman weaning a dress that is revealing. To those who are not spiritually attune, they are simply being fashionable, smart. I see it a lot round town.
As full awareness and acceptance is necessary for sin to occur, I wonder if we can still call it that.

Another example is nudity in the saunas. I understand that in Germany, this is the norm
I was shocked when I learnt that even priests use such facilities.

Romans 3:23
"all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God"
In view of the above, how do I defend our belief that Our Lady never sinned?
The thread is from another forum. I want to post a reply and I have a general idea but stating it clearly and convincingly is the problem.
Thanks.

Hello Odhiambo

When people are shameless you still speak of sin as sin, it's a very bad sign for souls!


I am trying to recall a response to incorrect understandings of Romans 3:23 I heard once that was very nicely put, I know some responses to it but it was quite fine if I can just recall the details.

Hi whiterockdove  :happywave:

I pray that you do.
The point I want to make is that Jesus is also counted among us humans and yet we all know that He is without sin so that statement  of Saint Paul has exceptions.
But the doubters will simply say that the statement does not apply to Jesus as He is God"

In Luke 1: 32, we learn of the Annunciation how the Angel told Mary that God will would give to the Child to be conceived, the throne of his ancestor David;
 "He will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and  his reign will have no end.' "

David was a political king. He was a man of war and killed many in his time, so much so that God would not have him build His Temple, preferring King Solomon for that sacred task. Is it any wonder then that the Jews expected the Messiah to be just such a king? From the Annunciation, one is left with that impression.

I need some help with today's First Reading: Jgs 11:29-39a.
Jephthah, a warrior who had just defeated the Amorites, wants to thank God by
offering Him a burnt human sacrifice :o
God had already given the Ten Commandments. There was to be no murder.
What was going on here?

I think this is a tough one!  :D

It is for sure :)
I asked the same question at a MailCircle forum and I was given some links to commentaries in the New Advent Bible as well as Rev. George Leo Haydock bible commentary, so it is okay.
My personal conclusion after reading the various commentaries is that I should always keep in mind that the Bible is inerrant and if some text seem contrary, it is because I do not know the whole picture as God does. :)

The events in the Scripture confirms what Jesus said "Do not make vows" and if you make a vow you must pay to the Lord what you vowed.
Jephthah offered his own virgin daughter out of obedience to an oath which he swore.
The daughter showed fidelity to God saying "My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth to the Lord, do unto me whatsoever thou hast promised, since the victory hath been granted to thee, and revenge of thy enemies.?" Judge 11:36
Her obedience to God is a foreshadowing of Mary who would also offer her obedience to God.

This is a hyperbole uttered by the Prophet, which Paul is making use of to teach that all need God's glory and that justification is given freely through the grace of God and redemption through Jesus Christ, whom God has offered as a means of reconciliation by means of faith in His bloody passions, even unto justification and remission of sins by which God's patience shows His justice in our time so that God may be reveled to be Just and the Justifier of all whom have faith in Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:23-26 Douay Rheims
"For all have sinned and do need the glory of God.?
?Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,?
?Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins,?
?Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time: that he himself may be just and the justifier of him who is of the faith of Jesus Christ?"
Original sin was transmitted by the concupiscence of lust, and Mary, whose conception we acknowledge to be immaculate and free from all concupiscence and itself miraculous, is the cause of her unique status as sinless.
The sinless nature of Mary is the perfect humanity of Eve before the fall and elevated by her obedience by which she merited eternal life through unfailing obedience to God.
The teaching of the Apostle cannot nullify the tradition of the Church which has always taught Mary's sinlessness, perpetual virginity and assumption into heaven.